1:00 am |
aellislegal: |
Welcome to our 1st chat! We have 4 fmr BigLaw attys to chat about why, when and how they left & what they are doing now #lawjobchat |
| 1:03 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat 2 years and 5 mos at Cravath, Swaine + More. Now an art evangelist using social media and other forums to connect ppl w art. |
| 1:04 am |
aellislegal: |
Once we begin questions, anyone can comment, ask follow-up questions, etc. #lawjobchat |
| 1:04 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Whoops, will watch the typos. That’s Cravath, Swaine + Moore LLP… 1998-2001 |
| 1:05 am |
aellislegal: |
@kristahiner Awesome! Welcome!! #lawjobchat |
| 1:05 am |
doncruse: |
#lawjobchat Three years at Wachtell Lipton. Then four years at Texas AG’s version of OSG. Now a solo appellate lawyer in Austin. #lawjobchat |
| 1:05 am |
dtoddsmith: |
About 9 years total at Fulbright & Jaworski in Dallas and Austin offices. Now have my own civil appellate boutique. #lawjobchat #lawjobchat |
| 1:06 am |
aellislegal: |
Hi @doncruse @kiangaellis @dtoddsmith – thanks for your intros! #lawjobchat |
| 1:07 am |
aellislegal: |
Not sure if @reneefishman is here yet – I’ll start the questions and let her introduce herself when she arrives #lawjobchat |
| 1:08 am |
kiangaellis: |
@doncruse I spent the summer before law school as a paralegal at Wachtell. Mostly manual labor lifting tobacco litigation boxes #lawjobchat |
| 1:09 am |
aellislegal: |
Q1: at what point in career did you realize you wanted to leave BigLaw to do something else? what factors motivated you? #lawjobchat |
| 1:10 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal thx. Columbia Law grad. 5+ yrs @ Weil Gotshal, then in-house @ startup. Now NYC Real Estate broker: VP @halstead #lawjobchat |
| 1:11 am |
doncruse: |
@kiangaellis Small world! #lawjobchat |
| 1:11 am |
aellislegal: |
Hi @reneefishman! Q1 (to all): at what pt in career did you realize you wanted to leave BigLaw, what factors motivated you? #lawjobchat |
| 1:14 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat I studied communication & #marketing @UPenn. Wanted to use both sides of my brain: intellect + creativity |
| 1:14 am |
aellislegal: |
RT @reneefishman I always knew BigLaw wasn’t my end game; I wanted to move to business side & also be able to use my creativity. #lawjobchat |
| 1:14 am |
adamcollyer: |
@aellislegal The #lawjobchat is a great idea. I’m grateful to be employed in Sept, but am passing along advice to friends in need. Thank you |
| 1:14 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Had a feeling 2nd summer in law school that it might not be what I’d been expecting since 13yrs old… |
| 1:15 am |
dtoddsmith: |
@aellislegal Q1: Always wanted to have my own firm. Wasn’t handling kinds of cases I wanted & desired more client contact. #lawjobchat |
| 1:16 am |
doncruse: |
#lawjobchat #Q1 It felt pretty natural. TxOSG offered a chance to be lead counsel on big appeals, which some firm partners didn’t get. |
| 1:17 am |
doncruse: |
#lawjobchat #Q1 (cont’d) The cases at the firm were amazing, as were the people. But the opportunity for growth as an advocate was bounded. |
| 1:18 am |
reneefishman: |
warning to my followers: I’ll be co-hosting #lawjobchat for next hour to answer questions about careers after BigLaw. |
| 1:18 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat I should mention, after Big Law went in house at Goldman and Lehman dealing w derivatives + commodities (in between start ups). |
| 1:19 am |
aellislegal: |
@kiangaellis @reneefishman Q2: did u know what u wanted to do when u left BL? @doncruse@dtoddsmith kind of answered this in Q1 #lawjobchat |
| 1:20 am |
kristahiner: |
@kiangaellis That is how I’ve been feeling. (The expectation). Starting to look for a less conventional legal route. #lawjobchat |
| 1:20 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal Q1 cont’d: motivated to get into #realestate to help people & I <3 NYC. Plus I knew my legal skill would add value. #lawjobchat |
| 1:20 am |
mjsq: |
@kiangaellis I’m sure many lawyers are in the same spot now. #lawjobchat |
| 1:21 am |
dtoddsmith: |
@doncruse I’ve always admired TxOSG. Envy the experience young lawyers are able to get there. Extremely valuable, no doubt. #lawjobchat |
| 1:22 am |
reneefishman: |
@KiangaEllis #lawjobchat small world! I did event planning on the side while @ WGM. Search for me + #Bizbash article from ~2003 ish |
| 1:23 am |
reneefishman: |
@KiangaEllis #lawjobchat small world again. I was in-house @ Creditex (now part of ICE) – interdealer broker in derivatives |
| 1:24 am |
j_lavalley: |
Everyone who’s left BigLaw knows it’s 1/2 meat-grinder, 1/2 boiler room & 1/2 laughing academy. How EZ/hard was it 4 ppl 2 exit? #LawJobChat |
| 1:24 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat Q2: 1st went in-house after BigLaw – goal was to get to biz side but startup grew fast & too much legal work |
| 1:26 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat Q2 cont: I always had entrepreneurial streak & knew I wanted to run my own biz. As RE Broker I’m an independent contractor |
| 1:26 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Q2 cont. 1st tried 2 get a job in fashion. No go. I liked organizing events in college + law school so that’s what I started w/. |
| 1:27 am |
kristahiner: |
@reneefishman how has your JD helped with RE?–Skills? Reputation? I’m considering a non-firm route and wonder how the JD helps. #lawjobchat |
| 1:27 am |
aellislegal: |
Good question via @j_lavalley How EZ/hard was it 4 ppl 2 exit? #LawJobChat |
| 1:28 am |
kiangaellis: |
@kristahiner #lawjobchat It’s a great time to be less conventional. I strongly encourage it. Major shifts in biz + industry. Carve ur space. |
| 1:29 am |
doncruse: |
#lawjobchat #Q3 Wanting to leave a place is very different than wanting to be somewhere else. [fortune cookie version] Wait for the latter. |
| 1:30 am |
aellislegal: |
Another great question RT @kristahiner @reneefishman how has your JD helped with RE?–Skills? Reputation? #lawjobchat |
| 1:30 am |
reneefishman: |
@j_lavalley always easy to leave BigLaw: lots of attrition. Real issue is how easy/hard is it to enter what u want to do. #lawjobchat |
| 1:30 am |
dtoddsmith: |
Q3: Talk to people you trust, those who have taken paths similar to what you’re interested in. #lawjobchat |
| 1:31 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal Q3: best #advice is don’t leave BigLaw til u figure out what u want to do next #lawjobchat. At least u need a game plan |
| 1:32 am |
kiangaellis: |
@reneefishman #lawjobchat I was *so* into Bizbash!!! Also got very active in a prof assn can’t remember the name of and James Beard House. |
| 1:32 am |
j_lavalley: |
@reneefishman Yes, precisely! I should’ve asked how EZ/hard it was 2 *transition* (i.e., effectively/successfully) to a new gig. #LawJobChat |
| 1:33 am |
reneefishman: |
@kristahiner JD & legal experience can help w/everything. 4 me in RE I play “translator” b/w clients & RE attys #lawjobchat |
| 1:34 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Q3 Tough! Current Big Law, I guess don’t get stuck looking 4 the perfect thing or feel you need to figure out the end game. |
| 1:35 am |
aellislegal: |
Q4: did you begin saving $ before leaving BigLaw? how long? any other planning u did before leaving (e.g. special training)? #lawjobchat |
| 1:35 am |
reneefishman: |
@kristahiner also I understand nuances of contracts & complex issues that clients & other brokers don’t get #lawjobchat |
| 1:35 am |
j_lavalley: |
@kiangaellis LOL ~ I know that feeling all 2 well! Left Boies Schiller?w/no real prospects?but knew I had 2 do “something else.” #LawJobChat |
| 1:36 am |
mjsq: |
re:Q2 I see lots of event planning/bus development positions in BigLaw. Was it an option to shift positions w/in firm? feasible? #lawjobchat |
| 1:37 am |
reneefishman: |
@kristahiner JD & BigLaw legal experience helps differentiate me & shows I’m intelligent in a field w/low barrier to entry #lawjobchat |
| 1:37 am |
aellislegal: |
RT @mjsq re:Q2 I see lots of event planning/bus development positions in BigLaw. Option to shift positions w/in firm? feasible? #lawjobchat |
| 1:38 am |
reneefishman: |
@mjsq I know many people who stayed w/in BigLaw 2 do event planning/biz dev/recruiting/associate relations. not what I wanted #lawjobchat |
| 1:38 am |
kiangaellis: |
@mjsq #lawjobchat Taking a non legal role in a firm sounds like a gr8 strategy 2 me. Gets u experience and results to bolster another move. |
| 1:38 am |
mjsq: |
@doncruse, nicely put. #lawjobchat |
| 1:39 am |
kristahiner: |
@reneefishman Fantastic way to distinguish yourself. #lawjobchat |
| 1:40 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal Q4 #lawjobchat saving $ is good idea. esp if u plan to start own biz. will tackle training next |
| 1:40 am |
kiangaellis: |
@j_lavalley #lawjobchat Yeah, I took the leap right after major market crash. #brilliant. But law always helped me get back in2 a good job. |
| 1:41 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat Q4 so crucial to get good experience so resume doesn’t read so “legal”; best way to do this is experience thru volunteer work |
| 1:41 am |
dtoddsmith: |
Q4: Had saved some $. Main thing was to have pieces in place to start working on day 1 of new firm. Planned & planned some more. #lawjobchat |
| 1:42 am |
jerry_levine: |
Well, I’m finally back home. Attended some job search strategy thing at NJ Law Center. Now time to pay attention to #lawjobchat for a bit. |
| 1:42 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Q4 Aahh, saving $. I didn’t plan well or handle money very well for a long time. Learned/learning lots of lesson there… |
| 1:42 am |
aellislegal: |
@dtoddsmith Q4: how many months prior to departure did u start planning? #lawjobchat |
| 1:43 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat Q4 if u r involved in charities, committees, etc u can get biz dev, event plan & other non-legal expereince. Tout this on resume |
| 1:43 am |
mjsq: |
@dtoddsmith and how long did it take for you to begin day 1 of new firm after departure? #lawjobchat |
| 1:43 am |
aellislegal: |
@reneefishman Q4: how far in advance to start saving? from day 1 since reality is most ppl don’t stay in BigLaw? #lawjobchat |
| 1:43 am |
doncruse: |
#lawjobchat #Q4 How much to save depends (obv.) on what you want to do. But if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now. |
| 1:44 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat Q4 I didn’t plan well or handle money very well for a long time. Learned/learning lots of lesson there | Ditto |
| 1:44 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Q4 The truth? My planning was take a HLOC, shop like a nut in LON + Paris. Quit my job. Take out a Small Biz loan. #terriblemove |
| 1:44 am |
j_lavalley: |
@kiangaellis @reneefishman In my experience, no matter how much $ U have saved it NEVER goes as far as U think/hope. #savemore! #LawJobChat |
| 1:45 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal hard 4 me 2 answer. I wasn’t great at it. NYC cost of living is high. I purchased my apt just b4 leaving BigLaw. #lawjobchat |
| 1:46 am |
aellislegal: |
Q5: what BigLaw opportunities should current BL associates take advantage of while there?Anything u took for granted while there #lawjobchat |
| 1:47 am |
allhomemortgage: |
RT @kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q4 The truth? My planning was take a HLOC, shop like a nut in LON + Paris. Quit my job. Take out a Small … |
| 1:47 am |
dtoddsmith: |
@aellislegal @mjsq Q4: Planned several months. Kind of practice, biz dev strategy, insurance, systems. No gap between firms. #lawjobchat |
| 1:47 am |
j_lavalley: |
IMO networking is necessary (if not sufficient) 2 making an effective transition. Local Bar Ass’n involvement can B a HUGE help! #LawJobChat |
| 1:48 am |
kiangaellis: |
@mjsq @toddsmith #lawjobchat When I started thinking I shld get a job after 2 yrs w startup, quickly linked w GS. Derivatives helped a lot. |
| 1:48 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat best BigLaw perk: Free #CLE. I still keep my license current & CLE is $ |
| 1:48 am |
aellislegal: |
YES! what I tell associates when they call me! via @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat |
| 1:49 am |
dtoddsmith: |
Q5: Training. Also, learn as much as firm will teach about biz development. On your own, work doesn’t just show up on your desk. #lawjobchat |
| 1:50 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @j_lavalley IMO networking is necessary 2 making an effective transition. | Agree. But u should be networking no matter what #lawjobchat |
| 1:50 am |
j_lavalley: |
@aellislegal Use it or lose it! Whether firm-paid CLEs, FSIA accts, or support for pro bono &/or Bar Committee work … take it! #LawJobChat |
| 1:50 am |
doncruse: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q5 I’d say to take advantage of the networking opportunities a big firm presents. |
| 1:51 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat | Save even if you’re not contemplating a move |
| 1:52 am |
lisasolomon: |
@aellislegal A gr8 source for free CLE is Virtual LegalTech. ABA will also have a virtual CLE conf. in the fall 4 solos #lawjobchat |
| 1:52 am |
aellislegal: |
Q6: share a networking tip, resource, or organization that has helped u in your entrepreneurial endeavor #lawjobchat |
| 1:53 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat Q5 I still see & speak w/many of my colleagues from Weil Gotshal & co where I was in-house. Many are my RE clients |
| 1:53 am |
lisasolomon: |
@reneefishman @aellislegal My husb transitioned 2 new career (sound design/engineering), but keeps up his license. Vry valuable #lawjobchat |
| 1:53 am |
kiangaellis: |
RT @j_lavalley: @aellislegal Use it or lose it! Whether firm-paid CLEs, FSIA accts, or support for pro bono &/or Bar Committee work … take it! #LawJobChat |
| 1:54 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal I am a big fan of @lawline for CLE. Great online classes. #lawjobchat |
| 1:55 am |
aellislegal: |
RT @lisasolomon: gr8 source for free CLE is Virtual LegalTech. ABA will have virtual CLE conf. in the fall 4 solos #lawjobchat #lawjobchat |
| 1:56 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 #networking tip always 2 talk 2 people even if u don’t think ur interested. I talked to recruiters from day 1 |
| 1:56 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Q6 Honestly, the best resource to help me as an entrepreneur has been the Bible! Wld lose my mind completely without it. |
| 1:56 am |
Tartipants: |
RT @reneefishman RT @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat | Save eve… http://foook.com |
| 1:56 am |
dtoddsmith: |
Q6: I think @doncruse would agree that blogging can be a difference-maker. Makes you visible. Good conversation-starter. #lawjobchat |
| 1:56 am |
kiangaellis: |
RT @reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 #networking tip always 2 talk 2 people even if u don’t think ur interested. I talked to recruiters from day 1 |
| 1:57 am |
aellislegal: |
Final Q (though welcome to keep chatting): would u ever return to BigLaw? Any other advice u haven’t shared but wanted to share? #lawjobchat |
| 1:57 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat #Q5 The rigor, pressure and complexity of performing at Big Law is so valuable. | Agreed. |
| 1:59 am |
reneefishman: |
@dtoddsmith @doncruse #lawjobchat I don’t blog b/c no time to do it consistently. But Twitter, LinkedIn & FB help me keep in touch w/pple |
| 1:59 am |
doncruse: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 Don’t assume friends/classmates know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better. |
| 1:59 am |
aellislegal: |
Agree – recruiters can be referral source, too RT @reneefishman #lawjobchat #Q6 always 2 talk 2 people, I talked to recruiters from day 1 |
| 2:00 am |
aellislegal: |
@mjsq @reneefishman and, recruiters often refer clients to attys! #lawjobchat |
| 2:00 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat I <3 what I do now & am passionate about my biz. BigLaw not for me. But some people like BigLaw & security offered |
| 2:01 am |
kristahiner: |
@doncruse That’s an excellent point. It is easy to forget how valuable classmates are when starting a new venture. #lawjobchat |
| 2:01 am |
BetsyMunnell: |
True fact: @reneefishman JD/BigLaw experience helps differentiate me; shows I’m intelligent in field w/low barrier 2 entry #lawjobchat |
| 2:02 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat biggest misconception is that life after BigLaw is easier. NOT SO. I work much harder & longer hours now. |
| 2:02 am |
mjsq: |
@doncruse Def! Send an e-mail to your contacts, let ‘em know what yr up to, start a mailing list, ask ‘em to join #lawjobchat |
| 2:03 am |
kiangaellis: |
#lawjobchat Final Q I wld not return 2 BigLaw + after 10 yrs of back + forth, no more practicing 4 me. It’s a personal journey 4 each one. |
| 2:03 am |
kristahiner: |
@reneefishman Wow, I am glad you said that; I foolishly assumed that was the reason many people left. Great advice. #lawjobchat |
| 2:03 am |
aellislegal: |
Next #lawjobchat 7/29 9pm EDT. Follow @LawJobChat for topic, let us know your suggestions, comments, etc – doing this for you! #lawjobchat |
| 2:04 am |
kiangaellis: |
RT @doncruse: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 Don’t assume friends/classmates know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better. |
| 2:04 am |
mjsq: |
We’re also going to set up a #LawJobChat wiki. We’ll link to bios of past guests & have a place for follow up discussion, topic requests. |
| 2:04 am |
kiangaellis: |
RT @BetsyMunnell: True fact: @reneefishman JD/BigLaw experience helps differentiate me; shows I’m intelligent in field w/low barrier 2 entry #lawjobchat |
| 2:04 am |
dtoddsmith: |
On going back, never say never. But I like what I’m doing now. Much more control and satisfying for me. #lawjobchat |
| 2:05 am |
aellislegal: |
Gr8 pt!! RT @reneefishman #lawjobchat biggest misconception = life after BigLaw is easier. NOT SO. I work much harder & longer hours now. |
| 2:05 am |
BetsyMunnell: |
I’d like to chime in on Q5 (former 25-yr Biglaw partner/now bizdev coach 4 lawyers/students)? @aellislegal It’s a key question #lawjobchat |
| 2:05 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat When u finally determine what u want to do, have the courage to follow that path, even if it seems scary. You will be rewarded. |
| 2:06 am |
aellislegal: |
RT @BetsyMunnell: I’d like to chime in on Q5 (former 25-yr Biglaw partner/now bizdev coach 4 lawyers/students)? @aellislegal It’s a key question #lawjobchat |
| 2:06 am |
dtoddsmith: |
@reneefishman Couldn’t have said it better. #lawjobchat |
| 2:07 am |
doncruse: |
@aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 I’d just echo what Todd said. There are real advantages to a bigger firm. But I like what I’m doing now. |
| 2:07 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @doncruse #lawjobchat Don’t assume friends know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better. | Gr8 pt |
| 2:08 am |
BetsyMunnell: |
@aellislegal Q5 Before you leave, learn about the real world-if the firm is teaching this…Can you read a financial statement? #lawjobchat |
| 2:08 am |
j_lavalley: |
RT @reneefishman: When u finally determine what u want to do, have the courage 2 follow that path….You will B rewarded. #TRUTH #LawJobChat |
| 2:09 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat Key is u have 2 determine what your skills r & what u like 2 do. Many lawyers do not want to be entrepreneurs. Too risky 4 them |
| 2:09 am |
kiangaellis: |
@dtoddsmith and everyone behind #lawjobchat, this was really fun and I hope helped someone. Life is what you make it. No limits. |
| 2:11 am |
aellislegal: |
HUGE THANKS to guest co-hosts @doncruse @dtoddsmith @kiangaellis @reneefishman – excellent info!! #lawjobchat |
| 2:12 am |
mjsq: |
Yes, thank you to @kiangaellis @reneefishman @doncruse @dtoddsmith @aellislegal & participants – the 1st #LawJobChat rocked! #lawjobchat |
| 2:12 am |
reneefishman: |
#lawjobchat #advice Most important is determine what u love 2 do. Understand what is involved – not just the glamour but also the grit. |
| 2:14 am |
reneefishman: |
RT @aellislegal HUGE THANKS to guest co-hosts @doncruse @dtoddsmith @kiangaellis@reneefishman – excellent info!! #lawjobchat | Thx! |
| 2:15 am |
reneefishman: |
@aellislegal & #lawjobchat participants THANKS for including me. Had a blast & hope I helped. Follow your passion & do what you love! |
| 2:18 am |
kiangaellis: |
RT @reneefishman: #lawjobchat #advice Most important is determine what u love 2 do. Understand what is involved – not just the glamour but also the grit. |
