Lessons from #LawJobChat: @betsymunnell on Online Tools for Career Management

Note: Just because this post is a little delayed, doesn’t mean it’s not worth reading :-)

On November 18, 2010, we hosted our fifth #LawJobChat, a chat on Twitter that usually takes place the last Thursday of each month from 9 – 10 pm Eastern.  (November and December we switched up the schedule due to the holidays!)

During #LawJobChat #5, we spoke with Elizabeth (“Betsy”) Munnell (@BetsyMunnell),  a former BigLaw partner and rainmaker who started Elizabeth Munnell & Associates, where she focuses on “business development training for law students and young lawyers.”

Betsy provided tips on how to curate the web, monitor practice areas or firms of interest, and build connections with the business intelligence you gather.  Betsy can be reached on Twitter or LinkedIn.

It was thanks to this #LawJobChat that we also started the LawJobChat LinkedIn group, which you should join!

5 Takeaway Tweets

  • @BetsyMunnell: Use Twitter links/JDSupra/RSS to deepen expertise on legal and business, targeted industries, to research prospects & more
  • @BetsyMunnell: A smart, strategic web curator’s strategy must help you build relationships…to develop your reputation/network.
  • @BetsyMunnell: If you have some material relationships developing then you want to be watching subjects of interest to them.
  • @BetsyMunnell:  Moral: Watch for breaking news, for data that will help someone else shine. Send it immediately.
  • @BetsyMunnell: …the web offers excellent ways to learn directly from practicing lawyers

I’d also recommend Amanda’s post that highlights the important points that Betsy covered.

Mark Your Calendars: #LawJobChat – January 27, 9-10 pm Eastern

Before I paste the full transcript, I’ll remind everyone that the next #LawJobChat will be at its normal date and time – the last Thursday of the month – from 9-10 pm EST.   We’re finalizing the topic and guest host for next time but we’re also open to your suggestions and requests.  You can leave a comment and/or send me an e-mail at melissa at recruiteresq dot com.

Full Transcript

2:00 am aellislegal: Welcome to the 5th #LawJobChat! Tonight we are discussing online tools to manage your career. #lawjobchat
2:01 am j2_whittington: Time for #lawjobchat
2:01 am j2_whittington: RT @aellislegal: Welcome to the 5th #LawJobChat! Tonight we are discussing online tools to manage your career. #lawjobchat
2:01 am aellislegal: You may already use online resources in your practice – we hope tonight’s info will share new resources #lawjobchat
2:02 am LNLawSchool: RT @aellislegal: Welcome to the 5th #LawJobChat! Tonight we are discussing online tools to manage your career. #lawjobchat
2:02 am aellislegal: Our guest tonight is @betsymunnell, former BigLaw partner/rainmaker who now coaches attorneys. She knows A LOT abt online tools #lawjobchat
2:03 am aellislegal: I’ll let @betsymunnell share a little more about her background! #lawjobchat
2:03 am BetsyMunnell: Thanks so much Amanda for inviting me to take part in #LawJobChat. #lawjobchat
2:03 am BetsyMunnell: When I started a 2nd career (July ’10) I never imagined becoming a breathless fan of social media & online learning for lawyers! #lawjobchat
2:04 am BetsyMunnell: I certainly didn’t expect my new business to gain traction so quickly, in part due to my enthusiasm for Twitter & LinkedIN. #lawjobchat
2:04 am aellislegal: Oh, after @betsymunnell‘s intro, I’ll start w/some questions, labeling them Q1, Q2, etc. Feel free to jump in when u have ??s #lawjobchat
2:04 am BetsyMunnell: As a lawyer I totally underestimated the power of online platforms, but I caught up fast via strategic Twitter/LinkedIN follows #lawjobchat
2:05 am BetsyMunnell: Any JD or law student can enrich & advance his/her career by disciplined use of the web. We’ll make suggestions like these…. #lawjobchat
2:05 am BetsyMunnell: 1. Use curated searches to identify an interesting, growth practice area (or vet a possible new law firm). #lawjobchat
2:05 am BetsyMunnell: 2 Use Twitter links/JDSupra/RSS to deepen expertise on legal and business, targeted industries, to research prospects & more #lawjobchat
2:06 am LNLawSchool: RT @betsymunnell: 1. Use curated searches to identify an interesting, growth practice area (or vet a possible new law firm). #lawjobchat
2:06 am mjsq: RT @BetsyMunnell As lawyer I underestimated pwr of online platforms, but I caught up fast via strategic Twitter/LinkedIN follows #lawjobchat
2:06 am BetsyMunnell: 3. Build & monitor your personal brand & a rich professional network. And: 4. Learn how to deploy both to generate business. #lawjobchat
2:07 am LNLawSchool: RT @betsymunnell: 2 Use Twitter links/JDSupra/RSS to deepen expertise, to research prospects & more #lawjobchat
2:07 am BetsyMunnell: OK Amanda–I’m exhausted from that lengthy monologue–time for a question. #lawjobchat
2:07 am LNLawSchool: RT @betsymunnell: 3. Build & monitor your personal brand & a rich professional network. #lawjobchat
2:08 am LNLawSchool: And: 4. Learn how to deploy both to generate business. #lawjobchat
2:08 am aellislegal: Q1: Great! Let’s start with a basic: which websites do you check daily? Which 3 sites should JDs/students check daily? #lawjobchat
2:09 am BetsyMunnell: The web is huge–so we all need favorite a web filter: a search engine? an RSS feed like Google Reader? a Blawg ?Carnival? ? #lawjobchat
2:10 am BetsyMunnell: I recommend Twitter for news, LinkedIn and JDSupra for network status, industry info, and some combo of blogs #lawjobchat
2:11 am j2_whittington: RT @BetsyMunnell: I recommend Twitter for news, LinkedIn and JDSupra for network status, industry info, and some combo of blogs #lawjobchat
2:11 am BetsyMunnell: I am not a fan of Facebook for lawyers. And I see the web as primarily a news and data filter for practitioners. #lawjobchat
2:11 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell Facebook? #lawjobchat
2:12 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell: read my mind! #lawjobchat
2:12 am BetsyMunnell: The ethical and other difficulties of engaging fully on Twitter are challenging. Blogging can be tricky too. But.. #lawjobchat
2:13 am BetsyMunnell: Ultimately, with enough experience, many lawyers can benefit enormously from a blog presence–perhaps thru @lexblog #lawjobchat
2:13 am aellislegal: Q2: Let’s use a specific example – how would a health lawyer use web filters to gain updated info for that area/industry? #lawjobchat
2:14 am BetsyMunnell: Lawyers and students who want to consider blogging should follow @kevinokeefe–he has it all figured out. #lawjobchat
2:16 am BetsyMunnell: In my book Twitter is the zenith of Web filters…I use lists to follow the best subject curators. #lawjobchat
2:17 am aellislegal: Q1 re blogging – I think @mjsq has some blogging info/basics on her site, too #lawjobchat
2:17 am BetsyMunnell: The experts you follow must be reliable-so you need ?referrals? from seasoned lawyers, others. Ask them. Or… #lawjobchat
2:17 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell do you use Twitter’s built-in list function or a tool like @formulists? #lawjobchat
2:17 am BetsyMunnell: …raid their lists. :) In health care I like @HealthBlawg & the blog carnivals he favors. #lawjobchat
2:19 am BetsyMunnell: @mjsq I use @hootsuite and have set up a number of lists, including Best Content, News, Business News, Science, etc #lawjobchat
2:19 am BetsyMunnell: The best curators/lawyers cover industries ?holistically?–law, business, IT, policy, different types of clients #lawjobchat
2:20 am aellislegal: Q2 cont – So, find health care lawyers like @healthlawblawg and see who they follow #lawjobchat
2:20 am BriHoffman: not going to be able to participate in #lawjobchat tonight, but i look forward to the transcript! have fun, and hope ur all doing well!
2:21 am BetsyMunnell: @j2_whittington is a perfect example of blogging’s benefits & he’s gone viral–! #lawjobchat
2:21 am mjsq: Agree. RT BetsyMunnell ..best curators/lawyers cover industries ?holistically?-law, business, IT, policy, diff types of clients #lawjobchat
2:22 am aellislegal: Q2 cont – what about using Google alerts to learn about “health law”? Or Google alerts for health lawyers (if job searching)? #lawjobchat
2:23 am BetsyMunnell: One of the beauties of Twitter etc is the range of possible info-sharp lawyers understand the industries they serve #lawjobchat
2:24 am BetsyMunnell: I used Google Alerts for a while but was disappointed–the info from the sweeps comes in too slowly. So.. #lawjobchat
2:25 am BetsyMunnell: I now use Twitter searches and set them up in Hootsuite columns. If job searching you’re still after similar info #lawjobchat
2:26 am BetsyMunnell: You need to make your interviewer see the depth of your interest in/knowledge of the field and his/her company #lawjobchat
2:27 am aellislegal: Q2 cont For those that may not b familiar w/Twitter searches, do u mean a “saved search” for “health law”? Any special steps? #lawjobchat
2:27 am BetsyMunnell: so you need to be way out in front of current developments at that company –such as regulatory changes, litigation #lawjobchat
2:28 am BetsyMunnell: I’d have to check this again–I can’t recall how I set up the three I have Amanda–but it was easy–maybe a new tab? #lawjobchat
2:29 am BetsyMunnell: Other ways to track legal fields, industries, companies, prospects: RSS feeders-but you need patience/discipline #lawjobchat
2:30 am aellislegal: Q3 Time mgmt is huge issue for lawyers – how often do u have to check the search results? #lawjobchat
2:30 am j2_whittington: @HammieHamHam check out #lawjobchat – pretty good info from some really good ppl about getting your name out there – never 2 early 2 start
2:31 am LNLawSchool: @betsymunnell In Hootsuite, it’s as easy as setting up a new “stream” with a search term. Very important, imo. #lawjobchat
2:32 am BetsyMunnell: Q3 Good question. The net itself can be an enormous distraction/timewaster. Especially if you enjoy the people. #lawjobchat
2:32 am squirrelpants: @BetsyMunnell What is the benefit to hootsuite over tweetdeck or Twitter? #lawjobchat
2:33 am BetsyMunnell: The search results in Hootsuite show up alongside al the other lists/streams and are easy to check. #lawjobchat
2:33 am BetsyMunnell: How often to check–well that depends on where you are in your networking/biz development strategy: #lawjobchat
2:34 am aellislegal: Q4: Do you find LinkedIn groups helpful for gaining info about practice areas/industries? If so, any examples? #lawjobchat
2:34 am BetsyMunnell: If you have some material relationships developing then you want to be watching subjects of interest to them. #lawjobchat
2:34 am BetsyMunnell: When you see something break, you want to be the first to send along the linkl–making yourself valuable/memorable. #lawjobchat
2:35 am BetsyMunnell: @squirrelpants First, that’s one hell of a great handle. Second–I don’t know anything about tweetdeck, but #lawjobchat
2:36 am BetsyMunnell: twitter alone just doesn’t give me much flexibility–and is way too disorderly for my brain. #lawjobchat
2:37 am BetsyMunnell: Q4 I think LinkedIN is a tremendous resource for information when used strategically. Alumni groups can be great. #lawjobchat
2:37 am j2_whittington: @BetsyMunnell but don’t you need to be careful and read what you’re RTing first tho? jrnalists have taken big hits b/c of this #lawjobchat
2:37 am BetsyMunnell: You have to check things out, watch to see who is active, wheter the content is intelligent and helpful, etc #lawjobchat
2:39 am BetsyMunnell: My favorite thing about LInkedIn is its partnership with JDSupra–the premium account even send you posts based on #lawjobchat
2:40 am aellislegal: Re watching subjects of interest, job seekers: use searches 2 find articles in desired pract area, send to atty w/whom u intvwd #lawjobchat
2:40 am BetsyMunnell: ..sorry–more on @JD Supra- I have found some wonderful substance thru this vehicle. #lawjobchat
2:40 am mjsq: I wondered about the premium account… what are the benefits? Would you recommend for all lawyers to upgrade their @LinkedIn? #lawjobchat
2:41 am BetsyMunnell: Jack- yes lots of people RT links based solely on the tweeter’s intro or the title of the post itself. Lazy. Risky. #lawjobchat
2:41 am aellislegal: Q4 cont – Using the health lawyer ex .. health lawyer could subscribe 2 health law feeds on JD Supra to gain info re health law? #lawjobchat
2:41 am BaranCLE: Good Q. Many don’t RT @j2_whittington @BetsyMunnell but don’t you need to be careful and read what you’re RTi #lawjobchat
2:42 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell Also, I wondered if premium @LinkedIn accts should be benefit firms offer so that their emplys can learn. Opinion? #lawjobchat
2:43 am BetsyMunnell: @mjsq I don’t recommend an upgrade ($) unless you’re following a specific, hot topic well vetted on @JDSupra. #lawjobchat
2:45 am BetsyMunnell: @mjsq Firms should help lawyers access online info, but I don’t think JDSupra has yet proven value of premium. #lawjobchat
2:46 am aellislegal: Q4 cont Still using health lawyer ex … any specific groups for health lawyers to join on LinkedIn? Search groups for keywords? #lawjobchat
2:46 am BetsyMunnell: @aellislegal – there are a number of large firms that post routinely on JDSupra-some fields are better than others #lawjobchat
2:47 am BetsyMunnell: As an example, my old firm’s Insurance/Reinsurance practice regularly tweets/posts on LInkedIN/JDSupra #lawjobchat
2:48 am BetsyMunnell: I understand that the insurance posts are carefully followed in the industry #lawjobchat
2:49 am BaranCLE: RT @aellislegal Welcome to the 5th #LawJobChat! Tonight we are discussing online tools to manage your career. #lawjobchat
2:50 am aellislegal: Q5: You’ve shared tips re Twitter searches, JDSupra, RSS feeds. Any examples of lawyers using these to learn abt pract areas? #lawjobchat
2:51 am cyclaw: Interesting discussion going on at #lawjobchat. Great info for a work-in-progress solo like me..
2:51 am BetsyMunnell: Q4 Keywords for health care? Healthcare reform. FraudAbuse. Conflict of Interest..That sort of thing. #lawjobchat
2:52 am BetsyMunnell: Q5 Yes–to preface my answer..The end goal for all of this-of course-is a self-sustaining law practice. #lawjobchat
2:54 am BetsyMunnell: A smart, strategic web curator’s strategy must help you build relationships…to develop your reputation/network. #lawjobchat
2:54 am BetsyMunnell: One of my clients-a small firm 4th year- wants to develop a peer referral source in a big firm. #lawjobchat
2:55 am j2_whittington: For those of u solos out there lking for help I would recommend @SCartierLiebel -Solo Practice University- Great tool for solos #lawjobchat
2:55 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell how does one organize/use info once they find/gather it online? How do they turn it into competitive intelligence? #lawjobchat
2:56 am BetsyMunnell: The Biglaw hotshot he’s targeted is in cleantech, biofuels–stuff like that. She’s expected to blog weekly. #lawjobchat
2:56 am mjsq: *how does one turn it into competitive intelligence. #lawjobchat
2:56 am aellislegal: @betsymunnell Thoughts re evernote? RT @bcuban can evernote benefit attorneys? #lawjobchat
2:56 am BetsyMunnell: And of course she is anxious about proving herself in a firm where only 15% of the equity partners are women. #lawjobchat
2:57 am aellislegal: Good Q RT @mjsq: @BetsyMunnell how does one organize/use info once they find/gather it online? #lawjobchat
2:57 am maggieesq: RT @BetsyMunnell: Jack- yes lots of people RT links based solely on the tweeter’s intro or the title of the post itself. Lazy. Risky. #lawjobchat
2:58 am BetsyMunnell: My guy set a twitter search & read the NYT Green Blog daily. One fine day he spotted a breaking post, sent it 2 her #lawjobchat
2:59 am BetsyMunnell: His BigLaw contact, thrilled, sent it to the partner she works for, who was grateful & impressed. #lawjobchat
2:59 am BetsyMunnell: Same goes for the associate…who matured into a solid referral source overnight.. #lawjobchat
2:59 am aellislegal: @j2_whittington Great point re @SCartierLiebel‘s SPU as online tool for solos … can take classes for diff practice areas #lawjobchat
3:00 am BetsyMunnell: Moral: Watch for breaking news, for data that will help someone else shine. Send it immediately. #lawjobchat
3:00 am BetsyMunnell: That’s how you build a practice. #lawjobchat
3:01 am BetsyMunnell: @SCartierLiebel‘s SPU is a wonderful resource–as are a number of other platforms/blogs etc @myshingle for example #lawjobchat
3:01 am aellislegal: Final Q – we’ve talked about lawyers using these tools -what about firms? How are they using online tools to reach/help clients? #lawjobchat
3:02 am BetsyMunnell: Last Q Several savvy large firms are offering free online documents and support (“document generators”) online. #lawjobchat
3:03 am aellislegal: Good Q RT @mjsq: @BetsyMunnell how does one organize/use info once they find/gather it online? #lawjobchat
3:03 am BetsyMunnell: These target startups and venture capitalists and are brilliant marketing tools. #lawjobchat
3:04 am BetsyMunnell: Wilson Sonsini put out a term sheet generator for entrepreneurs in ’09. #lawjobchat
3:05 am BetsyMunnell: But law firms have always offered fre/discounted assistance at that level–I know I did. It’s good business. #lawjobchat
3:06 am BetsyMunnell: The real cutting edge stuff is coming from Goodwin Procter via @GoodwinBigIdeas & the new “Founder’s Workbench”. #lawjobchat
3:06 am aellislegal: @betsymunnell you’ve provided some great insight re using searches, RSS, JDSupra, LI Groups to learn abt pract areas .. #lawjobchat
3:06 am aellislegal: @betsymunnell you’ve provided some great insight re using searches, RSS, JDSupra, LI Groups to learn abt pract areas .. #lawjobchat
3:07 am BetsyMunnell: Very useful documents and tremendous support on many levels–tax, regulatory etc. Great marketing. #lawjobchat
3:07 am aellislegal: @betsymunnell and great insight re firms’ use of online tools. THANK YOU for joining us to share your knowledge! #lawjobchat
3:07 am BetsyMunnell: The thing I love about Goodwin’s site is that it benefits the profession at large, and law students too. #lawjobchat
3:08 am BetsyMunnell: It?s way better than PLI/CLE, and free. #lawjobchat
3:08 am BetsyMunnell: This way BigLaw can help train lawyers in practical skills as well as specialized substance–law schools doesn’t! #lawjobchat
3:09 am mjsq: RT @BetsyMunnell …real cutting edge stuff is coming from Goodwin Procter via @GoodwinBigIdeas & the new “Founder’s Workbench” #lawjobchat
3:09 am BetsyMunnell: Thanks Amanda – my pleasure. I appreciate being included and welcome questions offline from anyone I missed! #lawjobchat
3:10 am j2_whittington: Do you guys have a #lawjobchat group on LinkedIn?
3:10 am BetsyMunnell: Well Jack we will soon! #lawjobchat
3:11 am LNLawSchool: Many thanks @BetsyMunnell @aellislegal and others for a great #lawjobchat! #Lawschool students, search on the hashtag to read the script.
3:11 am aellislegal: As always, I’ll post a summary and chat transcript tomorrow #lawjobchat
3:11 am mjsq: @BetsyMunnell Thank you so much for joining us! I know we could’ve talked for hours about this stuff… #lawjobchat
3:12 am LNLawSchool: Great idea, Jack! RT @j2_whittington: Do you guys have a #lawjobchat group on LinkedIn?
3:13 am mjsq: We will! RT @LNLawSchool Great idea, Jack! RT @j2_whittington: Do you guys have a #lawjobchatgroup on LinkedIn? #lawjobchat
3:13 am BetsyMunnell: @mjsq Thanks Melissa- I really enjoyed this–my first experience with a real time online discussion. #lawjobchat
3:14 am LNLawSchool: RT @betsymunnell: Well Jack we will soon! #lawjobchat (re:#lawjobchat Linkedin group)
3:18 am BetsyMunnell: I need to add one thing I wanted to cover– the web offers excellent ways to learn directly from practicing lawyers #lawjobchat
3:20 am BetsyMunnell: @lancegodard?s @22twts & @cordellparvin?s podcasts give you useful access to lawyers in your field #lawjobchat
3:21 am BetsyMunnell: Tip: Be sure to follow marquis blogs (WSJ, NYT etc). Blogs rarely ?break? news, but offer good, quotable analysis. #lawjobchat
3:22 am BetsyMunnell: Finally–be watching for growth practice areas–health care and “green” especially. But also China and #KM. #lawjobchat
3:24 am BetsyMunnell: For China, I like @DanHarris, among others. Knowledge management is fascinating–a trending field. #lawjobchat
3:25 am BetsyMunnell: #KM is at the intersection of law, project management, IT…and its key to the future of the profession. #lawjobchat
3:25 am BetsyMunnell: I’m learning about #KM via @greglambert @LawyerKM & a bunch of very scary smart law librarian tweeps. #lawjobchat
3:26 am BetsyMunnell: Thanks to all those who participated. Made my day. #lawjobchat
3:34 am mjsq: Agree. Req reading: Bill Gates. RT @BetsyMunnell #KM = intersection of law, proj mgement, IT..& it’s key to future of profession #lawjobchat
3:34 am j2_whittington: Alright #lawjobchat was very informative – but now its back to this appellate brief – til’ the night closes in bow-bow-bow #lawschool
3:50 am lancegodard: @BetsyMunnell Thanks, Betsy, for including @22Twts in your excellent #lawjobchat! Lots of useful info.
4:22 am aellislegal: @v9n You can thank @betsymunnell (follow her if you aren’t already)! She mentioned @HealthBlawg on #LawJobChat tonight
4:22 am steveMwade: So true.. RT@BetsyMunnell: the web offers excellent ways to learn directly from practicing lawyers #lawjobchat
9:14 am mijori23: RT @j2_whittington: #lawschool students keep in mind #lawjobchat is tonight beginning at 9 EST – see you there – LOTS of invaluable advice from GREAT ppl
9:17 am mijori23: RT @LNLawSchool: RT @betsymunnell: 3. Build & monitor your personal brand & a rich professional network. #lawjobchat
11:24 am keyvanrastegar: RT @BetsyMunnell: Tip: Be sure to follow marquis blogs (WSJ, NYT etc). Blogs rarely ?break? news, but offer good, quotable analysis. #lawjobchat
12:55 pm healthblawg: Thx 4 mention > @aellislegal @betsymunnell #lawjobchat
9:33 pm BetsyMunnell: Thanks for the RT! @stevemwade: So true. RT@BetsyMunnell-The web offers excellent ways to learn directly from practicing lawyers #lawjobchat
9:35 pm BetsyMunnell: Thanks for the RT! RT @mjsq: Agree. Req reading: Bill Gates. RT @BetsyMunnell #KM is key to future of profession #lawjobchat
9:35 pm BetsyMunnell: @lnlawschool Thanks for participating in #lawjobchat!!!
9:36 pm BetsyMunnell: @lawyercoach Thanks for mentioning our #lawjobchat!
9:36 pm associatesmind: @BetsyMunnell I didn’t get to participate in #lawjobchat but I read over it this morning. Good stuff. Going to try and make the next one.
9:37 pm BetsyMunnell: Thanks for the mention! RT @barancle: Good Q. Many don’t RT @j2_whittington @BetsyMunnell …be careful and read what you’re RTi #lawjobchat
9:39 pm BetsyMunnell: Thanks! It was fun! RT @associatesmind:… didn’t get to participate in #lawjobchat…… Good stuff. Going to try and make the next one.
9:41 pm BetsyMunnell: My pleasure!!! I love your site. RT @carolynelefant: @BetsyMunnell thank you for mention of myshingle as solo resource at #lawjobchat

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @BaranCLE + @LawLine on CLE + Your Career

On Thursday, December 16, 2010, we hosted our sixth #LawJobChat.  Six months.  Wow.  That’s pretty awesome. I’ll write a separate post about this but it’s so awesome that at the end of November we decided to start a #LawJobChat LinkedIn group that you should join!

This particular #LawJobChat was pretty awesome too.

Topic:  CLE + Your Career with @BaranCLE + @LawLine

We spoke with Tim Baran (@BaranCLE) and Jeff Reekers, the Marketing Director  @LawLine, about CLEs.  In specific, we talked about how they can boost your career and how technology is changing them.

Lisa Solomon, a previous #LawJobChat host, brought up some great points and offered some technology tips as well.  I’ve pasted the full transcript below.

5 Takeaway Tweets

  • BaranCLE: for a course to be CLE accredited, the provider must apply in each state. We help you through that process
  • Lawline: Its many papers to fill out! To stay on top of them all is a job in itself. Always have to keep in mind state specifics*

*Fine, 6 takeaway tweets

  • BaranCLE: As in many industries today, it’s becoming increasingly important for CLE positions to include social media skills
  • BaranCLE: Places to look for jobs include: CLE providers, Bar Associations, Law Firms, any entity that offers accredited CLE courses
  • Lawline: RT@lisasolomon Yes! Young attys don’t realize how easy it is 2 become a speaker. Organizations are hungry for content to present

Next #LawJobChat: January 27th, 9-10 pm Eastern

Before I paste the full transcript, I’ll remind everyone that #LawJobChat #7 will take place on January 27th, 2011(!!) from 9-10 pm Eastern.

We’re finalizing the topic and guest host for next time but we’re also open to your suggestions and requests.  You can leave a comment and/or send me an e-mail at melissa at recruiteresq dot com.

Full Transcript

2:00 am aellislegal: Welcome to #LawJobChat! Our topic tonight is CLE & your career. 1st part of discussion will be about jobs avail in CLE #lawjobchat
2:00 am Lawline: Ditto RT @BaranCLE Plz excuse. Back to regularly scheduled tweets in an hour RT @mjsq#LawJobChat soon w/ @LawLine & @BaranCLE.
2:00 am aellislegal: We’ll also talk about advancing your career with CLE – both the skills that help you and the visibility of speaking at CLEs #lawjobchat
2:01 am BaranCLE: Honored. Hey, love the new @lawline avatar #LawJobChat
2:02 am aellislegal: We have 2 CLE experts as our guest co-hosts – @barancle and @lawline. I’ll let these 2 experts introduce themselves #lawjobchat
2:02 am mjsq: Btw, I love @BaranCLE‘s job board. Not only CLE jobs. Great resource. http://www.barancle.com/cle-jobs/ #LawJobChat
2:02 am Lawline: Honored as well! Changing up the picture just for the night :) #LawJobChat
2:02 am aellislegal: @barancle @lawline tell us your backgrounds, current roles. Then, I’ll start with questions (will try to # the questions) #lawjobchat
2:03 am BaranCLE: My name is Tim and I’m a Twitter addict. I’m also a CLE entrepreneur #LawJobChat
2:04 am BaranCLE: my entrepreneurial venture is BaranCLE which offers CLE accreditation services and serves as a hub for info and community #LawJobChat
2:04 am Lawline: Jeff here. Been working with @lawline for past year in accreditation and many other areas. #lawjobchat
2:05 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE @lawline can you elaborate a bit about “accreditation services” for participants unfamiliar with the process? #lawjobchat
2:06 am Lawline: Company has been producing online CLE for past 11 years online. Many new cutting edge products on the way as well! #lawjobchat
2:06 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE @lawline Also, did you work in CLE before obtaining your present roles? #lawjobchat
2:06 am BaranCLE: for a course to be CLE accredited, the provider must apply in each state. We help you through that process #LawJobChat
2:07 am BaranCLE: 45 of the 50 states have a mandatory CLE requirement #LawJobChat
2:08 am BaranCLE: Yes, I was the director of CLE and library at NYC law firm for a decade. I’m getting up there in age #LawJobChat
2:08 am fredabramson: RT @BaranCLE: my entrepreneurial venture is BaranCLE which offers CLE accreditation services and serves as a hub for info and community #LawJobChat
2:09 am Lawline: Its many papers to fill out! To stay on top of them all is a job in itself. Always have to keep in mind state specifics #lawjobchat
2:09 am aellislegal: Q1: what kinds of jobs/roles are available for JDs in the CLE field? #lawjobchat
2:10 am BaranCLE: CLE jobs range from clerical to those requiring a law degree #LawJobChat
2:10 am Lawline: JDs work with us to create programs with our faculty. Their perspective allows them to work hands on and develop great content. #lawjobchat
2:10 am BaranCLE: To answer your Q: CLE jobs for JDs include executive positions at bar associations – lots of bar assns out there #LawJobChat
2:11 am DavidCohenEsq: @BaranCLE I’m surprised all 50 don’t require it. Even if it isn’t required by state, it’s important to keep learning. #LawJobChat
2:11 am BaranCLE: State and federal agencies also a source for #CLE jobs like the courts and related admin offices #LawJobChat
2:12 am aellislegal: @DavidCohenEsq @BaranCLE And, in some states that don’t require it, you still need CLE for malpractice insurance! #lawjobchat
2:12 am Lawline: @DavidCohenEsq It’s getting close. With NJ coming over and MD close to it. #lawjobchat
2:13 am BaranCLE: @DavidCohenEsq yeah, me too. But there is a significant voice of attorneys that oppose mandatory CLE in ANY state #LawJobChat
2:13 am BaranCLE: but that mandatory vs not is a huge can of worms, probably not suited for this discussion :-) #LawJobChat
2:13 am mjsq: And, @BaranCLE, you mentioned you were Director of CLE in a law firm so there are those jobs as well. #LawJobChat
2:14 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE And, what about firms? you mentioned you were dir of CLE at a firm, so opportunities there? #lawjobchat
2:14 am mjsq: @aellislegal @BaranCLE haha, great minds think alike ;-) #LawJobChat
2:14 am aellislegal: @mjsq @BaranCLE great minds think alike :) look at our last tweets! #lawjobchat
2:15 am BaranCLE: Yes, you’ll find many opps in law firms, though directors or coordinators tend to have other responsibilities #LawJobChat
2:15 am aellislegal: @barancle @lawline what about CLE providers like @lawline? What kinds of roles do JDs hold in CLE providers? #lawjobchat
2:16 am BaranCLE: In law firms CLE positions are usually part of the library, marketing or prof dev departments #LawJobChat
2:16 am Lawline: Creating programs and facilitating programs. #lawjobchat
2:17 am Lawline: In NY, for example, a non-attorney course can be accredited, if the program is facilitated by a lawyer #lawjobchat
2:17 am aellislegal: Q2: any special skill set needed for JDs to work in CLE role in bar association, firm, provider, or state agency? #lawjobchat
2:18 am Lawline: Many great minds outside the legal community for great content, we leverage this using program attorneys to facilitate #lawjobchat
2:18 am aellislegal: Q2(cont) do JDs need to practice 1st before transitioning to role of working in CLE (at provider, bar association, state agency) #lawjobchat
2:19 am BaranCLE: As in many industries today, it’s becoming increasingly important for CLE positions to include social media skills #LawJobChat
2:19 am aellislegal: Interesting RT @Lawline: In NY, for example, a non-attorney course can be accredited, if the program is facilitated by a lawyer #lawjobchat
2:20 am DavidCohenEsq: @BaranCLE I see that combo. Firms often hold MCLE for in house counsel on their own or through bar group. Good way to network. #LawJobChat
2:20 am BaranCLE: JDs don’t need to practice before entering the CLE profession, but it helps to have an understanding of how law firm life works #LawJobChat
2:20 am mjsq: Nice! RT @BaranCLE As in many industries today, it’s becoming ++ important for CLE positions to include social media skills #LawJobChat
2:20 am lisasolomon: The NY rule requiring an atty on every program is completely boneheaded. But I suppose that’s another discussion for another day #lawjobchat
2:20 am Lawline: Q2: It doesnt hurt to have experience. And as @BaraCLE said, social media skill is an effective tool #lawjobchat
2:21 am Lawline: @lisasolomon Well said! #lawjobchat
2:21 am BaranCLE: @lisasolomon Lisa, that NY #MCLE rule is one of tons of boneheaded rules around the country! #LawJobChat
2:21 am mjsq: @lisasolomon (same w/ rules about social media courses….) #LawJobChat
2:22 am aellislegal: Q3: where can JDs find job postings/openings for CLE positions? @barancle, tell us about your job board and what it covers? #lawjobchat
2:22 am BaranCLE: @DavidCohenEsq yes, law firms and in-house depts offering CLE is a great way to network and provides vital service to clients #LawJobChat
2:22 am Lawline: Q2: its a 2-way road. Young JDs develop great experience facilitating and developing CLE courses. An intro to the community #lawjobchat
2:23 am mjsq: re Q2: @Lawline, do the JDs contact you & say they want to help develop CLE course or how does that work? #LawJobChat
2:23 am FrankFurbacher: RT @BaranCLE: 45 of the 50 states have a mandatory CLE requirement #LawJobChat
2:23 am BaranCLE: @mjsq yes, that “bonehead” comment applies to many #MCLE rules including marketing and social media accreditation #LawJobChat
2:25 am BaranCLE: CLE jobs boards are rare, which is why I created the listing at barancle.com. #ACLEA is another good source. #LawJobChat
2:26 am BaranCLE: Jobs listed at barancle found via web search, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and relationships formed on those platforms. #LawJobChat
2:26 am DavidCohenEsq: @Lawline The public speaking skill development is huge too. Especially for young litigators who need to speak in front of jury. #LawJobChat
2:26 am Lawline: @mjsq re Q2: We post openings for program attorneys, seek applications, etc. seel those with a passion for learning #lawjobchat.
2:26 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE What is #ACLEA for participants who may not be familiar? Do you have link to your job board? #lawjobchat
2:27 am BaranCLE: Places to look for jobs include: CLE providers, Bar Associations, Law Firms, any entity that offers accredited CLE courses #LawJobChat
2:28 am Lawline: @DavidCohenEsq Re speaking: Absolutely! It is a great skill to develop early in the career. CLE is an ideal way to develop it. #lawjobchat
2:28 am BaranCLE: Yes, here’s the link to jobs board http://www.barancle.com/cle-jobs/ #LawJobChat
2:28 am mjsq: @BaranCLE & @LawLine: re: @DavidCohenEsq‘s pts about networking & public development, how has online CLE changed those aspects? #LawJobChat
2:29 am BaranCLE: @DavidCohenEsq really good point, David. Presenting at CLE events improves public speaking and also provides networking opps #LawJobChat
2:29 am mjsq: Is there still potential for networking & public speaking* development with online CLE? #LawJobChat
2:30 am aellislegal: Q4 @DavidCohenEsq tweeted re importance of public speaking as critical skill for young litigators speaking in front of jury #lawjobchat
2:30 am aellislegal: Q4 cont How can young lawyers speak at CLEs? Do they have to be asked or can they volunteer? #lawjobchat
2:30 am BaranCLE: @aellislegal aclea.org is the Association for CLE, a GREAT resource for establishing connections and building relationships #LawJobChat
2:31 am Lawline: @mjsq look at what has developed on Twitter! those with the bug to engage, CLE can serve as a platform, even online #lawjobchat
2:31 am BaranCLE: Good Q, Amanda. There’s a kind of line that speakers follow from offering their services to becoming “known”, then charging #LawJobChat
2:32 am Lawline: @mjsq re networking: The potential to be seen by a larger audience opens up as well. #lawjobchat
2:32 am BaranCLE: @aellislegal young lawyers should reach out to providers and offer to speak. It would help if they establish expertise #LawJobChat
2:33 am aellislegal: RT @BaranCLE: @aellislegal young lawyers should reach out to providers and offer to speak. Helpful f they establish expertise #lawjobchat
2:33 am BaranCLE: Many bar assns offer a formal process on their websites for lawyers to present. I’m compiling a chart of links. Coming soon #LawJobChat
2:34 am lisasolomon: Tho I wouldn’t call myself “young,” I’ve gotten many speaking gigs by sending proposals 2 organizers of confs. I want 2 speak at #lawjobchat
2:34 am BaranCLE: …and many of the bar assns I just mentioned also promote diversity opps for lawyers to speak at CLE events #LawJobChat
2:35 am Lawline: @BaranCLE Agreed. personalities that take initiative to teach, also likely will develop great content for others process #lawjobchat
2:36 am lisasolomon: I started speaking locally, for the county bar ass’n & local women’s bar ass’n chapter. Now do state/national confs as well #lawjobchat
2:37 am BaranCLE: @lisasolomon Lisa, if young lawyers followed your example of proposing gigs, they’dbe successful. Let’s chat about this ltr? #LawJobChat
2:37 am mjsq: great idea, @lisasolomon! What materials do you include in your proposals? #LawJobChat
2:38 am maggieesq: interested in the answer too – RT@MJSQ Is there still potential for networking & public speaking* development with online CLE? #LawJobChat
2:38 am lisasolomon: @BaranCLE Any time; always love chatting with you #LawJobChat
2:38 am DavidCohenEsq: RT @Lawline: @BaranCLE Agreed. personalities that take initiative to teach, also likely will develop great content for others process #lawjobchat
2:38 am aellislegal: Q5 There was @atlblog post few wks ago by an in-house csl suggesting outside csl present CLEs at office of in-house csl #lawjobchat
2:38 am BaranCLE: @aellislegal Amanda, you book is great resource for job seekers. Social media so important in job search these days #LawJobChat
2:39 am lisasolomon: Young attys don’t realize how easy it is 2 become a speaker. Organizations are hungry for content to present #LawJobChat
2:40 am aellislegal: Q5 cont Suppose sr assoc at firm wanted to create/present CLE onsite for her in-house csl. What’s the next step? #lawjobchat
2:40 am BaranCLE: Totally skipped by that online CLE Q. @lawline, you may be more qualified to answer :-) #LawJobChat
2:40 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE Haha!! Thanks for the plug :) #lawjobchat
2:41 am Lawline: RT@lisasolomon Yes! Young attys don’t realize how easy it is 2 become a speaker. Organizations are hungry for content to present #LawJobChat
2:41 am lisasolomon: @maggieesq Yes, you can integrate attendees into the system you have in place 4 follow-up w/all contacts #lawjobchat
2:42 am BaranCLE: Re: networking for online CLE speakers — the exposure they get facilitates the easiest of networking – peeps call them! #LawJobChat
2:43 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE @lisasolomon Re proposing CLE, is it easier to do this for a local (smaller) bar assn rather than a state bar assn? #lawjobchat
2:43 am Lawline: re Online CLE: The outreach is incredible. More than just community, it can spread across the country. #LawJobChat
2:43 am lisasolomon: @BaranCLE #lawjobchat Sort of – as in all marketing, a single contact (even a valuable online program) isn’t sufficient to make the sale
2:44 am DavidCohenEsq: @Lawline it’s true. I’m chairing an all day MCLE next month. The hardest part is finding the speakers. #LawJobChat
2:44 am BaranCLE: @aellislegal may be test case for your book! Thinking of P/T gig to supplement entrepreneurial venture -prefer to grow it slowly #LawJobChat
2:45 am lisasolomon: Easier to propose to local bar ass’n b/c you probably already have contacts there who are happy to provide a platform for you #lawjobchat
2:45 am BaranCLE: I’ve been chatting with a few folks about creating CLE speakers bureau of sorts. Would be great for young lawyers AND providers #LawJobChat
2:46 am aellislegal: Q6 Is it easier for young lawyer to become speaker for online CLE course rather than live event or is there no difference? #lawjobchat
2:46 am aellislegal: LOVE! RT @BaranCLE: Ive been chatting with folks re creating CLE speakers bureau. Would be great for young lawyers AND providers #lawjobchat
2:46 am lisasolomon: If you want to get invited back as a speaker, submit your materials on time and complete; don’t make organizer hound you #lawjobchat
2:47 am mjsq: Q7 I don’t mean to dwell but one of best parts of attending CLE is meeting other *participants*. Does online allow for that? #LawJobChat
2:47 am BaranCLE: I think it’s much easier for a speaker to hone skills online before stepping in front of a podium. @lawline, you think? #LawJobChat
2:47 am aellislegal: RT @lisasolomon: Easier to propose to local bar assn b/c you probably already have contacts there, happy to provide platform #lawjobchat
2:48 am Lawline: @baranCLE re speaker bureau: it would turn the tables. The larger pool of speakers could also provide more energy to CLE. #LawJobChat
2:48 am aellislegal: RT @lisasolomon: If you want to get invited back as a speaker, submit your materials on time and complete #lawjobchat
2:48 am BaranCLE: A REALLY good way to start speaking is to join associations and BLOG about your specialty. They will seek you out! #LawJobChat
2:49 am aellislegal: RT @BaranCLE: A REALLY good way to start speaking is to join associations and BLOG about your specialty. They will seek you out! #lawjobchat
2:49 am Lawline: @mjsq Q7: Online is increasingly interactive. Just like webpages were once static and now we have Twitter… the same is coming #LawJobChat
2:49 am DavidCohenEsq: RT @lisasolomon: If you want to get invited back as a speaker, submit your materials on time and complete; don’t make organizer hound you #lawjobchat
2:50 am lisasolomon: @mjsq I include a title, complete program description, and link to past speaking engagements in my proposals #lawjobchat
2:50 am BaranCLE: Another advantage (or not) of online is that they offer reviews. @lawline does an excellent job of this. #LawJobChat
2:50 am mjsq: Like yr pts, @LawLine. I agree – e.g., if there’s a hashtag involved w/ CLE or comment forum but wanted to hear from experts. #LawJobChat
2:50 am Lawline: @mjsq re Q7: That being said, live programs will always have that advantage to a degree. Being able to shake hands is important #LawJobChat
2:52 am BaranCLE: There’s been huge cry about online vs live re quality, etc. Live is going nowhere. Online provides accessibility and convenience #LawJobChat
2:52 am aellislegal: Q8 – Some states allow CLE for ‘self-study’ (i.e., prof reading) – what about CLE credit for tweeting? Any states allow? #lawjobchat
2:52 am Lawline: RT @BaranCLE: There’s been huge cry about online vs live re quality, etc. Live is going nowhere. Online provides accessibility and convenience #LawJobChat
2:53 am lisasolomon: If ur serious re: speaking, have a friend in the audience videotape u, put samples on ur website (http://tinyurl.com/2uo7djs) #lawjobchat
2:53 am mjsq: @Lawline, true- but @lisasolomon @barancle @aellislegal & you & I all met online then shook hands in person. Could work w/ CLE #LawJobChat
2:53 am BaranCLE: Great points by @lisasolomon when presenting, be prepared. Know the rules re: materials, bios, outline, etc #LawJobChat
2:54 am BaranCLE: @aellislegal CLE for tweeting, blogging and other social media engagement would be great. But the regulators are not even close #LawJobChat
2:54 am Lawline: Great Pt!@mjsq true- but @lisasolomon @barancle @aellislegal & you & I all met online then shook hands in person. #LawJobChat
2:55 am mjsq: Wow, @lisasolomon! Another great idea! (she posted clips & testimonials on her website:http://tinyurl.com/2uo7djs) #LawJobChat
2:55 am lisasolomon: CLE speaking isn’t really that much work: can present same program for many diff organizations, in diff formats (live/online) #lawjobchat
2:56 am Lawline: re q8: Yes we have a ways to go for tweetCLEs, but what an innovative idea! It would be truly interactive, moreso than live. #LawJobChat
2:56 am mjsq: Question for @LisaSolomon – how has presenting CLEs helped/advanced your career? You seem to be great example of it working. #LawJobChat
2:57 am lisasolomon: @mjsq Most important tip: use a tripod and wireless lavalier mic for best recording quality #lawjobchat
2:58 am BaranCLE: @lisasolomon Lisa has some of the best practical advice on speaking, preparing, oh, and mushrooms (the kind we eat). #LawJobChat
2:58 am aellislegal: Final (official) Q (though keep tweeting if you wish) – how would someone use your services @barancle? #lawjobchat
2:58 am aellislegal: Final Q (cont) – and, @lawline, how can attorneys find out more about your CLE programs? #lawjobchat
3:00 am BaranCLE: You’re sweet for asking, Amanda. If putting on a webinar, 3-day conference or any CLE activity and need accreditation, we help #LawJobChat
3:00 am lisasolomon: @mjsq Speaking (along w/writing) gives me greater credibility w/potential clients. Exposes me to PCs (I work only 4 other attys) #lawjobchat
3:00 am BaranCLE: Again, CLE jobs at CLE providers, Bar Associations, Law Firms, any entity that offers CLE courses. Use social media to find ‘em #LawJobChat
3:01 am Lawline: final q: go to www.lawline.com. There are options to become a presenter there as well. We respond to all requests. #LawJobChat
3:02 am lisasolomon: Even if other attys aren’t ur clients, listing CLEs u’ve presented on ur website will make PCs think “he/she must be an expert” #lawjobchat
3:03 am aellislegal: @BaranCLE @lawline Thanks so much!! I should include @lisasolomon, too – you all shared brilliant advice #lawjobchat
3:03 am mjsq: I contacted @BaranCLE to see if my blogging for lawyers course could be accredited. I had no idea the process before I asked. #LawJobChat
3:04 am aellislegal: As always, I’ll post summary + transcript tomorrow. And, back on schedule in Jan with #LawJobChaton the last Thurs – 1/27/11 #lawjobchat
3:04 am BaranCLE: Thanks guys, this was a lot of fun. That hour flew by! #LawJobChat
3:04 am mjsq: Agree w/ @aellislegal, awesome chat. Lots of topics/different directions but it was very enjoyable. #LawJobChat
3:06 am Lawline: @aellislegal Thank you for organizing. As @BaranCLE stated, it is a pleasure to participate. #lawjobchat
3:12 am econwriter5: RT @mjsq: Btw, I love @BaranCLE‘s job board. Not only CLE jobs. Great resource.http://www.barancle.com/cle-jobs/ #LawJobChat
3:14 am econwriter5: #lawjobchat looked like a good one tonight. Will have to read transcript.
3:14 am econwriter5: RT @BaranCLE: for a course to be CLE accredited, the provider must apply in each state. We help you through that process #LawJobChat
3:15 am DavidCohenEsq: @Lawline @aellislegal @BaranCLE @mjsq Great job tonight! #lawjobchat

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @lancegodard on Legal Marketing

Way back in October, we hosted our 5th #LawJobChat and spoke with Lance Godard (@lancegodard), a legal marketing professional and business development consultant.

Lance is Principal at The Godard Group where he consults with lawyers and law firms on business development, B2B communications, strategic planning, and social media.  He’s also an active member of the Legal Marketing Association.  Finally, he is the force behind @22Tweets, a project through which lawyers may tell their stories over Twitter.  For those who are unfamiliar with the project, think of it this way: @22Tweets is Fresh Air and Lance Godard is Terry Gross (but male).

Lance spent over fifteen years at Jones Day, one of the world’s largest law firms, where he worked on international business development, communications, and management.  He specialized in helping the firm open new offices abroad.

When we spoke with him, we asked about how business development relates to one’s law career.  We asked when lawyers should start thinking about business development and how they should approach the subject at interviews.

It was interesting that this was the quietest #LawJobChat we hosted so far.  Perhaps it was due to Game 2 of the World Series.  Or, as Lance put it (liberally using quotations), “It’s like talking to a 7th grade class about sex.  Everyone has questions but no one wants to raise their hands.”  I think Lance’s characterization is pretty on point.

Topic

Business Development, Legal Marketing, When & How

Moderators

Amanda Ellis (@aellislegal) & Melissa Sachs (@mjsq)

Guest Co-Host

1.  Lance Godard (@lancegodard) – Principal at The Godard Group; Member at Large – Board of Directors, Legal Marketing Association – Ohio Chapter; Moderator/Founder @22Tweets

Transcript (copied & pasted from What the hashtag?!)

All times are Pacific Time

1:00 am aellislegal: Welcome to #LawJobChat! Tonight we’re discussing the intersection of business development & your job search. #lawjobchat
1:01 am aellislegal: We selected this topic because we are seeing more firms look to hire attorneys (including associates) with portable business #lawjobchat
1:02 am aellislegal: We decided to invite a business dev expert to offer tips about how, when associates should dev business, including biz plan #lawjobchat
1:02 am aellislegal: Our guest co-host/expert is @lancegodard! Lance, thanks for joining us! Tell us a bit about your background #lawjobchat
1:04 am lancegodard: Thank you very much @aellislegal @mjsq for having me! #lawjobchat
1:04 am lancegodard: I did international business development & marketing for an AmLaw 10 firm for 18 years (Paris, Hong Kong, US) #lawjobchat
1:04 am lancegodard: Consulting for past 2 (as of next Mon), working w/ lawyers & firms to set BD / mktg objectives & develop plans for meeting them #lawjobchat
1:05 am mjsq: @lancegodard congratulations on your 2 year mark! #lawjobchat #lawjobchat
1:06 am aellislegal: and, I bet many of our chat participants have read your @22twts! Can you tell others what @22twtsis? #lawjobchat
1:07 am lancegodard: For those of you who don?t know, 22 Tweets (@22Twts on Twitter) are live interviews of lawyers I do on Twitter #lawjobchat
1:07 am lancegodard: It started as an experiment to explore Twitter as a comms channel, and really took off. I?ve talked to more than 80 lawyers now #lawjobchat
1:08 am lancegodard: They?re great fun to do and (I hope) a great way for lawyers to tell their stories on Twitter, stories that clients like to hear #lawjobchat
1:08 am OreLawPracMgmt: RT @mjsq: 30 minutes until #LawJobChat re: legal marketing & business development w/ @lancegodard! It’s going to be a good one!!
1:09 am aellislegal: I think @22twts is a great way to find lawyers to follow – esp if a lawyer or law student is new to Twitter, looking to connect #lawjobchat
1:10 am aellislegal: Follow @22twts for updates on @lancegodard‘s upcoming interviews with lawyers #lawjobchat
1:11 am aellislegal: Q1 @lancegodard, when stating your background, you mentioned “business development” and “marketing” – is there a difference? #lawjobchat
1:12 am lancegodard: Next week we interview @PriyaLawyer and the week after @paulrubell #22Twts #Lawjobchat
1:12 am lancegodard: Q1 Absolutely. Biz dev=identifying your targets: people / companies / etc in a position to give you business or help you get it #lawjobchat
1:13 am UTLawCSO: RT @aellislegal: …@22twts is a great way to find lawyers to follow-esp if…law student is new to Twitter, looking to connect #lawjobchat
1:13 am lancegodard: Q1 Marketing = tactics for reaching with those targets: publications, websites, meetings, social events, etc. #lawjobchat
1:16 am aellislegal: Q2 @lancegodard do lawyers need a biz dev plan AND mktg strategies? Are these separate “documents”? #lawjobchat
1:18 am lancegodard: Q2 Yes and yes. Biz plan is ?who what why?: who are potential clients, what are opps for work, why you best candidate for work #lawjobchat
1:19 am lancegodard: Q2 Mktg plan is the how: the way you’re going to communicate with those potential clients so they know what you bring to table. #lawjobchat
1:20 am aellislegal: Q3 @lancegodard Excellent! So, lawyers need (1) biz plan and (2) mktg plan. Which should come first or does it matter? #lawjobchat
1:20 am lancegodard: Q2 But doesn’t have to be formal. ID your potential clients, why they should be, and how you will reach them. Write it down #lawjobchat
1:21 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Good info – Biz Plan and Mktg Plan don’t have to be formal but should be in writing #lawjobchat
1:22 am lancegodard: Q3 Biz plan needs to come first: you need to set goals / objectives / targets before you decide which tactics work best for each #lawjobchat
1:23 am aellislegal: Q4 @lancegodard When should a lawyer create a biz plan? i.e., 1st year of practice, 3rd year of practice? #lawjobchat
1:25 am lancegodard: Q4 As soon as they can?. It?s a question of not waiting for good things to come your way, of being responsible for your success #lawjobchat
1:25 am lancegodard: Q4 If you know what you want, why not go thru discipline of figuring out who will buy your services & how you will reach them? #lawjobchat
1:27 am lancegodard: Q4 Although things may change at start of career, writing down a plan doesn’t mean it’s written in stone. So earlier is better #lawjobchat
1:27 am reneefishman: @aellislegal chiming in to #lawjobchat: biz plan comes 1st; mktg plan is part of biz plan
1:28 am aellislegal: Q4 cont @lancegodard So, a 1st year construction lit associate could identify industry orgs to join, key contacts n constrn ind? #lawjobchat
1:30 am aellislegal: Q4 cont @lancegodard And, then const lit assoc could outline key mtgs for the orgs, lunch dates w/developers, etc as mktg plan? #lawjobchat
1:30 am lancegodard: Q4 Absolutely. And the people in the orgs to meet. And maybe what she hopes to gain from knowing those pple & being in that org #lawjobchat
1:31 am aellislegal: Nice thought – biz plan as objectives and mktg = to do steps RT reneefishman biz plan comes 1st; mktg plan is part of biz plan #lawjobchat
1:32 am lancegodard: Q4 (slow fingers) yes, but before mktg plan she needs to think about the “who what why”: who to meet, what they bring her (cont) #lawjobchat
1:33 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Ha! No worries, Tweetchat is sometimes slow refreshing!! #lawjobchat
1:34 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Q4 – got it, biz plan obj first, then marketing steps #lawjobchat
1:34 am lancegodard: Q4 and why it makes sense for them to meet her, ie why they should talk to her and ultimately help her out #lawjobchat
1:34 am lawmgtguru: RT @aellislegal: We decided to invite a business dev expert to offer tips about how, when associates should dev business, including biz plan #lawjobchat
1:35 am aellislegal: Q5 @lancegodard How often should an associate review/revise objectives in biz plan? Monthly? Quarterly? Annually? #lawjobchat
1:38 am lancegodard: Q5 Regularly…. Obviously depends on how much they hope to achieve. Ideally they’d spend some time looking at it every week #lawjobchat
1:39 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Excellent! #lawjobchat
1:39 am lancegodard: Q5 But that may not be realistic. I’ve seen lawyers with very detailed plans that drive much of their non-legal work time #lawjobchat
1:40 am aellislegal: Q6 @lancegodard What if the assoc is interviewing, firm doesn’t ask for biz plan, should assoc offer it? does firm size matter? #lawjobchat
1:40 am lancegodard: Q5 and others that have vague plans they check in on from time to time. But if there’s too much to do, it won’t get done #lawjobchat
1:41 am lancegodard: Q5 likewise, if there’s not much to do, it’s probably not really a biz dev and marketing plan…. #lawjobchat
1:42 am aellislegal: Q6 cont @lancegodard i.e., is it appropriate to offer biz plan to mid-small firm but not to large firm (or vice versa)? #lawjobchat
1:44 am lancegodard: Q6 I think the mid to small firms much more interested in the biz plan since those associates need to hit the ground running #lawjobchat
1:45 am lancegodard: Q6 but in all cases, whether or not associate brings out the plan, the discipline of having done the plan will improve interview #lawjobchat
1:46 am aellislegal: RT @lancegodard: the discipline of having done the plan will improve interview #lawjobchat
1:46 am aellislegal: @lancegodard I like that … having a plan improves the interview! #lawjobchat
1:46 am lancegodard: Q6 Being able to talk about law you want to practice, market for it, clients that need it etc will make you stand out #lawjobchat
1:48 am aellislegal: Q7 @lancegodard What’s the best way for associates to get started with creating a biz plan? what if firm doesn’t offer training? #lawjobchat
1:49 am PriyaLawyer: Looking forward to it RT @lancegodard: Next week we interview @PriyaLawyer and the week after @paulrubell #22Twts #Lawjobchat
1:49 am aellislegal: RT @lancegodard: Being able to talk about law you want to practice, market for it, clients that need it will make you stand out #lawjobchat
1:50 am lancegodard: Q7 Firms should include marketing and biz dev training in their associate dev programs (it?s in their best interest)…. #lawjobchat
1:52 am aellislegal: @lancegodard If firms don’t offer formal training, should associate find rainmaker ptr in firm/section and talk to him/her? #lawjobchat
1:52 am squirrelpants: On the marketing side, how do you find publications that fit your practice area & determine which ones to focus on? #lawjobchat
1:52 am lancegodard: Q7 But if no program associates can start by sharpening effective mktg skills, eg asking questions, listening to answers, etc #lawjobchat
1:53 am lancegodard: Q7 Doesn?t have to be in formal situations, but in everyday conversations they have with clients / peers / colleagues #lawjobchat
1:53 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Or, should the associate look outside the firm? Coach/trainer, publications to read for guidance? #lawjobchat
1:54 am lancegodard: Q7 If they need extra help, there are many things they can do. First, there exist a lot of good materials online now #lawjobchat
1:55 am lancegodard: Q7 eg templates, plans, articles, etc. Hiring a marketing coach / trainer always a possibility. Investing now will pay off later #lawjobchat
1:55 am aellislegal: @squirrelpants clarification – publication where you want to publish or publication to read? #lawjobchat
1:56 am aellislegal: Q7 @lancegodard Can you recommend any online sites as a starting point? #lawjobchat
1:59 am aellislegal: Finally, back to @22twts – is there a site where ppl can read past interviews? What if someone wants to be interviewed? #lawjobchat
2:00 am lancegodard: Q7 JD Supra law practice section is good, Larry Bodine’s Law Marketing Portal, I have blog of mktg / BD reading recommendations #lawjobchat
2:01 am lancegodard: Q7 and there an ever-increasing number of LinkedIn groups that deal with law marketing and biz dev #lawjobchat
2:01 am aellislegal: Excellent! RT @lancegodard: JD Supra law practice sect is good, Larry Bodines Law Marketing Portal, my blog BD reading recs #lawjobchat
2:02 am lancegodard: Q7 Finally, I think that lawyers need to look to other industries for help and ideas, esp professional services but not only #lawjobchat
2:03 am mjsq: Q7 cont. I’d add on re: LinkedIn to join groups related to practice areas that may not be legally-oriented. #lawjobchat
2:03 am aellislegal: @lancegodard Thank you for chatting w/us! You’ve provided excellent biz dev tips to help associates stand out in interviews! #lawjobchat
2:04 am mjsq: Q7. e.g., an group related to energy but not only for energy lawyers #lawjobchat
2:05 am aellislegal: FYI, all – our Nov chat will be the 3rd Thurs (instead of last Thurs) b/c of T’giving — next chat is 11/18 at 9pm Eastern #lawjobchat
2:05 am lancegodard: @aellislegal you’re very welcome, it’s been a lot of fun! I could have gone on for another hour (or two)! #lawjobchat
2:06 am aellislegal: RT @squirrelpants: On the mktg side, how do you find publications that fit practice area & determine which ones to focus on? #lawjobchat
2:09 am lancegodard: I think it depends to a certain degree on the practice area, @squirrelpants, but Google search and blog search are very helpful #lawjobchat
2:11 am lancegodard: Once you find the universe of titles, it’s probably pretty easy to tell which are serious and can help you market & which cannot #lawjobchat
2:12 am lancegodard: You should also talk to clients and peers to see what they read; that can be a good guide #lawjobchat
2:13 am lancegodard: If you want to discuss further @squirrelpants, please feel free to DM me #lawjobchat
2:14 am lancegodard: I think there were a couple more unanswered #lawjobchat questions. First, you can read the 22 Tweets interviews at 22Tweets.com
2:15 am mjsq: @lancegodard, thank you for joining us. Take away point: Many job-seeking attys (entry & lats) would benefit w/ biz or mkt plan! #lawjobchat
2:16 am BetsyMunnell: #lawstudents/#lawyers–New to Twitter? @lancegodard has your back..RT @aellislegal: @22twts-great way 2 find lawyers to follow #lawjobchat
2:17 am lancegodard: The “DM me” goes for anyone who wants to discuss these points further. Biz dev & mktg can be daunting but they don’t have to be #lawjobchat
2:17 am BetsyMunnell: RT @lancegodard: First: Biz dev=identifying your targets: people/companies in position to give you business or help get it #lawjobchat
2:18 am BetsyMunnell: RT @lancegodard: AND..Marketing = tactics for reaching with those targets: publications, websites, meetings, social events, etc. #lawjobchat
2:20 am lancegodard: Thank you again to @mjsq and @aellislegal for having me on #lawjobchat. It’s a great forum for job-seeking lawyers!
2:21 am BetsyMunnell: More clarity! @lancegodard: Biz plan= ?who/what/why?: potential clients, work opps, why hire you & Mktg Plan=how to reach them #lawjobchat
2:24 am BetsyMunnell: Finding the right publications to read? RT @lancegodard: .depends ..degree on practice area but Google/blog search helpful #lawjobchat
2:25 am BaranCLE: Good stuff! RT @lancegodard Thank you again to @mjsq and @aellislegal for having me on #lawjobchat a great forum for job-seeking lawyers
2:26 am AdvertisingLaw: RT @BaranCLE: Good stuff! RT @lancegodard Thank you again to @mjsq and @aellislegal for having me on #lawjobchat a great forum for job-seeking lawyers
2:31 am BetsyMunnell: @aellislegal @lancegodard What a great #lawjobchat. You hit all the key points for young lawyers. Look forward to RT’ing Amanda’s summary!
2:32 am adrianlurssen: RT @BetsyMunnell @aellislegal @lancegodard What a great #lawjobchat. You hit all the key points for young lawyers…
2:36 am BetsyMunnell: Including JD Supra–critical resource! @adrianlurssen: RT @BetsyMunnell @aellislegal @lancegodardGreat #lawjobchat hit all the key points
2:42 am AdvertisingLaw: Thank you @mjsq for the invite! This is a great forum for job-seeking lawyers & lawyers generally. #LawJobChat // @lancegodard @aellislegal
3:02 am lancegodard: Thanks @BetsyMunnell @AdrianLurssen @BaranCLE for your kind words re tonight’s #lawjobchat. I’m not often in the hot seat (but enjoyed it)
3:06 am paulrubell: RT @PriyaLawyer: Looking forward to it RT @lancegodard: Next week we interview @PriyaLawyerand the week after @paulrubell #22Twts #Lawjobchat
3:35 am econwriter5: Looks like #lawjobchat was good tonight. Will have to catch up.
3:48 am aellislegal: @econwriter5 I’ll post summary + transcript tomorrow afternoon! #lawjobchat
4:17 am AdvertisingLaw: @lancegodard Lance, I appreciate the invitation from Melissa @mjsq to join in! It was a lot of fun – you did a great job! #lawjobchat
4:20 am AdvertisingLaw: RT @aellislegal @econwriter5 I’ll post summary + transcript tomorrow afternoon! #lawjobchat

Amanda Ellis’s Recap

Business Plans in Your Associate Job Search

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @AttysCounsel on Legal Resumes

On September 30, 2010, we hosted our fourth #LawJobChat, a chat on Twitter that takes place the last Thursday of each month from 9 – 10 pm Eastern. The hour flew by as Jessica Silverstein, our guest host, answered questions about legal resumes.

Participants raised questions about formatting, job descriptions, whether to put blog URLs or social media profiles on resumes, and tips on making one’s resume stand out.  I’ve pasted the full transcript below.

About Jessica

Jessica Silverstein (@AttysCounsel) owns Attorney’s Counsel, a career counseling service for attorneys that specializes in resumes and interviewing skills. She is also a Member of the Committee on Career Advancement and Management for the New York City Bar Association.  The best way to contact her is via e-mail: info at AttorneysCounselNY dot com.  She’s happy to answer any questions or to follow up with more information.

5 Takeaway Tweets

  • AttysCounsel: NO OBJECTIVES!Your objective is to get the job! Summary can be helpful for someone switching practice areas.Transferable skills!
  • AttysCounsel: Subheadings will enable you to get what you want the ‘er to see on top and in a more targeted way. OK to list firm/title/dates (See also:  AttysCounsel:  Ok to shorten or merge summer positions if they were similar. Same for contract work. Again, think subheadings)
  • AttysCounsel: [LinkedIn] can have more info than resume, but what is the same should be the same. Plus, 1pg isn’t the max in all cases
  • AttysCounsel: …Good to read out loud to hear where there’s an error. Read out loud anyway but tenses esp r hard to miss when listening (See also:  AttysCounsel:  …If you are PRESENTLY working, that is in PRESENT tense. Old jobs, those w/an end date, are PAST tense)
  • AttysCounsel: Best 3 [resumes]: No formatting errors. Clear stmnt of accomplishment, not just job description. Focus on target position.

I’d also recommend Amanda’s post that highlights the important points that Jessica covered.

#LawJobChat #5: October 28th, 9-10 pm Eastern

Before I paste the full transcript, I’ll remind everyone that #LawJobChat #5 will take place on October 28th, 9-10 pm Eastern.  We’re finalizing the topic and guest host for next time but we’re also open to your suggestions and requests.  You can leave a comment and/or send me an e-mail at melissa at recruiteresq dot com.

Full Transcript

#lawjobchat

wthashtag.com/lawjobchat

aellislegal: Welcome to the 4th #LawJobChat with @AttysCounsel! I know several participants have checked in – @pag2010 @brihoffman @t10nbaum #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @t10nbaum @aellislegal I’m on a train and will follow #lawjobchat on my @BlackBerry.
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel why don’t you tell us about your background and what you do now #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @DavidCohenEsq Great, David!! We talked about you at the tweetup tonight – all wonderful things!! #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Happy to be here! I am a lawyer. I practiced Holocaust Restitution and Prod Liab prior to escaping practice. #lawjobchat
t10nbaum: @DavidCohenEsq on a train? that’s #lawjobchat dedication.
AttysCounsel: I started Attorney’s Counsel after years of legal placement work and frequent speaking at the NYCBar on resumes #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Worked with lawyers all over the word and focus on legal resumes but have helped prof’s in finance, health care and biz dev too #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: #lawjobchat – question- had mock interview (w/ employer for critique) who suggested adding personal touch to resume. this common/desirable?
t10nbaum: I second @BriHoffman ‘s question. Interest line or no? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Knew I didn’t want to practice so I also specialize in career transitions, other lawyers trying to decide what to do next. #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @aellislegal My ears were ringing for a reason. Sorry I missed it. Let me know when you will have one in SoCal! #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Let’s start with @pag2010‘s question re law student who had a non-legal summer job + clinic experience – how does he state this #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @attyscounsel feel free to answer @brihoffman‘s question first #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Clinic = legal exp and that should be listed with the rest of their LEGAL EXPERIENCE. Sub headings R gr8 #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Can always say Legal Experience, since that’s what they want to show, and Non-Legal or another designation… #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @BriHoffman “Interests” is always up for debate. Don’t waste space. Unless you r a ranked tennis player, we dont care. #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: #lawjobchat – the types of things the mock interviewer suggested were hobbies, interests, my “musical talent” (former jazz major), etc.
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel I think the student did some volunteer legal work, too – include under Legal? Include non-legal summer job or omit #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Re: Interests – If you r a recent grad and you need to differentiate yourself, or a 2L, ONLY incl things that r actually unique. #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Legal work, volunteer or otherwise, is legal experience. Unless they r trying to focus on volunteering keep legal #lawjobchat
pag2010: That’s correct, Amanda, she didn’t know how to state the volunteer wrk when she had a non legal main job #LawJobChat
BriHoffman: @AttysCounsel it has surprisingly come up in every (ok ok, all 3 of them, this market is bad) interviews i’ve had. #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @pag2010 Focus on what she wants the ‘er to know. She did legal work to keep those skills fresh and to have somethng on her rez #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: Belov’d denizens of Tweepville?I’ll B jumping in+out of #LawJobChat till 10pm; so, giving advance notice: potential hi-vol #Law tweeting! :D
aellislegal: @pag2010 I’ll defer to @attyscounsel but I think I’d be inclined to omit the non-legal summer work. I typically tell laterals #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @pag2010 that an “other professional experience” is required for non-legal prof jobs but sounds like this was just a PT job #lawjobchat
pag2010: Thank you, both #LawJobChat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Sorry if I’m not ans the Q. Yes, if she was doing simultaneous LEGAL work, not need to incl NON-legal #lawjobchat
aellislegal: We covered interests – a non-essential area – what about other non-essential areas like summary, obj. I usually advise against #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @BriHoffman At this point in your career, include interests, ESP if U R hearing from interviewers that you shld. Just BE UNIQUE. #lawjobchat
mjsq: @aellislegal @pag2010 @AttysCounsel, I’d include the non-legal job if she learned *marketable* skills… & if there was space. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel no, you are great!! I think I forgot to throw that part in until I re-read phil’s question #lawjobchat
pag2010: One more and it’s bed time for my son: Always looking for good action words 4 student research asst’ 4 prof who only did . . #LawJobChat
t10nbaum: #lawjobchat How do you choose which law jobs to leave on the resume if having them all makes it more than a page?
aellislegal: @mjsq good point re marketable skills in the non-legal job!! #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: @AttysCounsel they love the vocal jazz thing, one asked if i would sing a few bars… it was awkward… ;-) #lawjobchat
pag2010: . . a limited amount of research and not much writing. thanks #LawJobChat
jcasalmir: is eavesdropping on tonight’s #LawJobChat while her son are literally running under foot.
AttysCounsel: NO OBJECTIVES!Your objective is to get the job! Summary can be helpful for someone switching practice areas.Transferable skills! #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @jcasalmir welcome!! #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @j_lavalley welcome!! #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: i second this question from @pag2010 … buzz words for research assistant? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @mjsq definitely! Marketable and Transferable Skills shld always be incl. BUT be clear what is what and from where. #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @aellislegal @AttysCounsel The skills one learns in some non legal jobs can be huge. Cross trained lawyers have a lot to offer! #lawjobchat
aellislegal: RT @brihoffman i second this question from @pag2010 … buzz words for research assistant? #lawjobchat
stone239: @jcasalmir @aellislegal @j_lavalley can I watch? #LawJobChat
aellislegal: good pt! RT @davidcohenesq The skills one learns in some non legal jobs can be huge. Cross trained lawyers have a lot to offer! #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: @aellislegal Thank you! Glad I could join in?& not least, b/c this is a topic of particular relevance to me at the moment! :D #LawJobChat
AttysCounsel: Think about what you were doing. What were you researching? use the words u used to describe what you did. #lawjobchat
yalechk: Hi all will be monitoring this while I am working, happy to offer my perspective as employer interviewer #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: I tell clients to translate their legal skills into English. Then translate that into lang of the industry they r targeting #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @yalechk did u see last quest re which buzz words for law student to include for a research position description? Thoughts? #lawjobchat
jjlaustex: Worked 5yrs before law school. now part time and summer legal stuff is pushing everything off the resume, should I let them go? #lawjobchat
t10nbaum: #lawjobchat I asked this to @aellislegal b4, links to linkedin, facebook, twitter on the resume under contact info? Yes or no?
aellislegal: @t10nbaum My thoughts: Yes to LI, NO NO NO to Facebook (it’s personal) Twitter is a maybe depends on how using it #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Buzz words: Depends on the target position. Research in one industry is useful for diff reasons in another. #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: @AttysCounsel Agree 100% re Objective?OUT! Might as well put “Taxidermy” and “Discreet Polaroid photography” as “Interests”! ;P #LawJobChat
jcasalmir: per @DavidCohenEsq‘s point, non-legal responsibilities that demonstrate learning about business needs on your resume = good. #LawJobChat
aellislegal: @j_lavalley LOL!! #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @AttysCounsel Agree. Lawyer that can speak language of another profession can understand & explain across professional lines #lawjobchat
yalechk: I suggest being very specific about the questions you researched and what resources you used to research @aellislegal #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Not trying to duck Q, but if you aren’t specifically answrng job posting or job description buzz words may hurt. #lawjobchat
yalechk: bad description is “Research assistant to Professor X–research into civil procedure issues” @aellislegal #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal I agree, NO FB, I also say no LI, and no Twitter. They’ll find it anyway but it does depend what you want to be. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: RT @jjlaustex Worked 5yrs bf law school. now PT, summer legal stuff is pushing everything off the resume, should I let them go? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: NYSBA just wrote opinion on social media and job searching. WATCH OUT! #lawjobchat
mjsq: @t10nbaum my take re: urls, ppl include in e-mail signatures & if you e-mail resume…. I don’t think they need to be on there #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @yalechk good example! #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: @yalechk @aellislegal – went slightly further, maybe one sentence “deeper” such as topics (distressed debt investment & bkrptcy) #lawjobchat
yalechk: Good=Researched class action certification and collective actions in California using Lexis, BNA, & decisions reported on PACER #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal OK to shorten or merge summer positions if they were similar. Same for contract work. Again, think subheadings #lawjobchat
mjsq: @AttysCounsel could you tell us how we could find a link to that NYSBA opinion re: social media and/or link to more info? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Subheadings will enable you to get what you want the ‘er to see on top and in a more targeted way. OK to list firm/title/dates #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @mjsq working on that…I’ll get it to you after the chat. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @jjlaustex I think you def should keep your prior prof experience on there – esp if relevant to pract area you seek #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: @jjlaustex depends on the job. If it’s related to the practice job you want to be in or unique go ahead and include. #LawJobChat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Agreed. Do not remove relevant information! #lawjobchat
mjsq: awesome! RT @AttysCounsel @mjsq working on that…I’ll get it to you after the chat. #lawjobchat
jerry_levine: Oops. Just realized it was #lawjobchat day. And I’m writing an amicus brief for the DE Supreme Court. ;) I’ll read the replay later!
j_lavalley: #LawJobChat Possible buzz words 4 research: analyzed?compiled?condensed?digested?synthesized? #FTW?”designed & operationalized model study?”
aellislegal: Including blogs link on resume? similar topic to including LI so my take is yes b/c display of your writing, a skill of attys #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: @jjlaustex and all-have 2 apologize for my tweets not making sense. I’m trying to get a rowdy 9 year old to get ready for bed. #LawJobChat
jjlaustex: @jcasalmir #lawjobchat was an accountant; want to do tax law
aellislegal: LOVE! RT @j_lavalley Possible buzz words 4 research: analyzed?compiled?condensed?digested?synthesized? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @j_lavalley All good options.It’s difficult bc you don’t want your resume to be a thesaurus:wrote/drafted/scribbled/threw on ppr #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal You are the expert on social media and lawyers. Now I defer to you. Again tho, ONLY IF RELEVANT! #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: a big YES to including. Definitely! RT @jjlaustex #lawjobchat was an accountant; want to do tax law
aellislegal: @jjlaustex @jcasalmir Def sounds relevant!! Just make sure it’s in a separate section like “other professional experience” #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal @jjlaustex @jcasalmir Sorry, I missed a tweet back there… #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel I’ve seen blog links HELP get candidates hired – several times b/c firm wanted learn HOW to blog!! #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: @AttysCounsel :) GR8 point; agree 100%! (Agree too w/ @yalechk‘s excellent point re specificity?which applies across board, no?) #lawjobchat
jjlaustex: @aellislegal #lawjobchat so don’t use the word “researched” on your resume?
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal That’s a great success story. Like including vocal jazz on your interests… #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: i keep the internet out of my resume, i feel the employers are gonna find it if they want it anyways. #lawjobchat
yalechk: yes! the more specific the better! RT @j_lavalley: @AttysCounsel specificity?which applies across board, no?) #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Following up on when to remove positions – let’s discuss when laterals should remove summer clerkship/associate positions #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @j_lavalley Specificity, Relevancy, Consistency a few of my favorite things…CONSISTENCY, in case anyone missed that one… #lawjobchat
GamingCounsel: All cool kids want to be tax lawyers/accts when they grow up RT @jcasalmir RT @jjlaustex#lawjobchat was an accountant; want to do taxlaw
t10nbaum: #lawjobchat Yes, but you can put MORE stuff on linkedin, and still have the one page resume @brihoffman
yalechk: BIG yes. Husband is tax lawyer. Tax depts LOVE people w/accounting backgrounds RT @jcasalmir@jjlaustex #lawjobchat
yalechk: Yes, good points RT @aellislegal: LOVE! RT @j_lavalley Possible buzz words 4 research: analyzed?compiled?condensed?digested? #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @jjlaustex Phil’s question was about beefing up a research assistant position description, so what words in add’n to research #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Depends on #yrs out. But if there are at least 5-7 years of solid/relevant experience, consider removing #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal If they still need the good firm names, list names/title/dates. otherwise, focus on new skills and future success. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @jjlaustex Think you were referencing @pag2010‘s original tweet, let me know if was another tweet in the stream I overlooked #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: True! “@t10nbaum: #lawjobchat Yes, but you can put MORE stuff on linkedin, and still have the one page resume @brihoffman
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel Agree re 5 yrs out #lawjobchat
mjsq: @AttysCounsel, speaking of descriptions, what verb tense should ppl use on resumes? #lawjobchat
t10nbaum: @attyscounsel #lawjobchat, what about law student who did legal work in college?
AttysCounsel: @DavidCohenEsq LI can have more info than resume, but what is the same should be the same. Plus, 1pg isn’t the max in all cases #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Let’s look at a lateral atty (litigator) who wants to transition in-house – anything specific for resume? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @mjsq LOVE THIS Q! If you are PRESENTLY working, that is in PRESENT tense. Old jobs, those w/an end date, are PAST tense #lawjobchat
BriHoffman: i’ve got a hyper puppy… time for walk in this baltimore monsoon. i’ll read rest of chat later. thank you @attyscounsel et al.! #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Great question! RT @mjsq @AttysCounsel, speaking of descriptions, what verb tense should ppl use on resumes? #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: @aellislegal Blog posts=publications?even have a BB-cite format. So IMO why not include them? (But only “appropriate” subjects!) #LawJobChat
AttysCounsel: @mjsq Good to read out loud to hear where there’s an error. Read out loud anyway but tenses esp r hard to miss when listening #lawjobchat
Neil_Lemons: RT @aellislegal: Great question! RT @mjsq @AttysCounsel, speaking of descriptions, what verb tense should ppl use on resumes? #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @j_lavalley Great point re BB-cite format!! #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @yalechk @jcasalmir @jjlaustex If you have dual credentials, do continuing ed, keep both & showcase. It shows rounding. #lawjobchat
yalechk: http://bit.ly/cTHMvT RT @mjsq: @AttysCounsel NYSBA opinion re: social media and/or link to more info? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @yalechk THANKS! #lawjobchat
mjsq: Big ups, thx! RT @yalechkhttp://bit.ly/cTHMvT RT @mjsq: @AttysCounsel NYSBA opinion re: social media &/or link to more info? #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: @aellislegal not a litigator myself, but indications of regular interface with client biz teams or executives = good #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @AttysCounsel Agree, but someone should have a good bit of experience before going to page 2. Thoughts? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @jcasalmir 100% agree, beat me to “update” Anything showing client interaction, esp longer term. Also, clear focus on the indstr #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @jjlaustex (prior acct career) good ex when 1pg NOT max? RT @attyscounsel Plus, 1pg isn’t the max in all cases cc @davidcohenesq #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @DavidCohenEsq Yes, 2 pgs must be warranted. Not a recent grad w/a big font and no prior career. #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: RT @aellislegal: @j_lavalley Great point re BB-cite format!! #lawjobchat
yalechk: We make fun of kids out of college with 2 page resumes (or gasp–3!) RT @AttysCounsel: @DavidCohenEsq #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Have u seen lawyers use video resumes or online resumes like visualCV? ? arose in panel last wk cc @worklawyer @lawyerstraining #lawjobchat
j2_whittington: wait – you guys are saying resumes should only be one pg?!? OK so what are the fundamentals that need to be on that one pg #lawjobchat
t10nbaum: RT @yalechk: We make fun of kids out of college with 2 page resumes (or gasp–3!) RT @AttysCounsel: @DavidCohenEsq #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal I have seen them and I’m not a fan. I know things R changing but lots of lawyers still aren’t ready. #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @j2_whittington Traditionally resumes are only 1 pg, but if you have enough experience 2 pgs is OK. #lawjobchat
DavidCohenEsq: @yalechk @AttysCounsel I have seen them too. Size should be appropriate for education and experience. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel And, how do firms view them (video resumes, VisualCV)? @yalechk may have thoughts cc @worklawyer @lawyerstraining #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal What was the opinion of the panel? Wonder also abt geographic location and firm size and practice area… #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: @aellislegal and @AttysCounsel should laterals list specific speaking engagements in their resumes or provide upon request? #lawjobchat
lancegodard: RT @yalechkhttp://bit.ly/cTHMvT RT @mjsq: @AttysCounsel NYSBA opinion re: social media #lawjobchat
yalechk: Never seen one, but do not expect it would go over well in BigLaw RT @aellislegal: @AttysCounselAnd, how do firms view them #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @jcasalmir Yes, list relevant speaking engagements on your resume, unless there are many in which case consider addendum #lawjobchat
GamingCounsel: @jcasalmir You’re doing great, by the way! #lawjobchat
mjsq: @jcasalmir, I think listing speaking engagements is smart. #lawjobchat imo, shows initiative, public speaking skills, expertise, etc.
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel no one had seen it – but thought potentially effective 2 show other skills (speaking skills if applying 4 lit pos) #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Making the ppl who “read” your resume life easier is a good goal. If they r used to video, then great, if not… #lawjobchat
squirrelpants: Does a well-designed resume help someone stand out or should you try to be conservative/all-business? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @mjsq @aellislegal 100%. Speaking and Video clearly show additional skills not every other lawyer has. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Final Q to wind down – think of 3 best resumes you’ve seen – what made them stand out? #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @squirrelpants Well-designed and conservative need not be exclusive. #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: @aellislegal Best 3: No formatting errors. Clear stmnt of accomplishment, not just job description. Focus on target position. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: @AttysCounsel Awesome!! Thank you so much – I think this chat has been the most interactive – lots of participation!! #lawjobchat
mjsq: RT @AttysCounsel: Best 3 resumes: No formatting errors. Clear accomplishments not just job description.Focus on target position. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Next #LawJobChat is Oct. 28 at 9pm Eastern! Let us know if you want to guest host a chat or have a topic you’d like discussed! #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Resumes are so personal, I am not surprised everyone has an opinion! It has been my pleasure! #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: resumes that provided a very specific picture of a person’s past work experiences jumped to the top of the pile. #lawjobchat
mjsq: @aellislegal, I agree. Great job, @AttysCounsel. Legal resumes = huge topic to tackle in 1 hr. You rocked it. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: If you missed any of tonight’s chat, I’ll post the transcript and summary either later tonight or tomorrow morning #lawjobchat
mjsq: For anyone who has further questions, what’s the best way to contact you @AttysCounsel? #LawJobChat
aellislegal: @mjsq @attyscounsel agree – we could have a part 2 on this topic! #lawjobchat
AttysCounsel: Count me in for part 2!!! I just wrote (then deleted) “is it wrong that I don’t want this to end?” #lawjobchat
medialawcounsel: @aellislegal specific accomplishments, e.g. “Negotiated 6 asset purchase agreements”–not just a recount of areas of proficency. #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: great job once again by @aellislegal @mjsq and @AttysCounsel and thank you for letting me hog some of the discussion! #lawjobchat
j_lavalley: #lawjobchat @AttysCounsel & @aellislegal: Thanx! On #citations?some cool stuff re “vendor-neutral” / “universal” formats: http://is.gd/fDjkq
AttysCounsel: @mjsq To contact me, please email me at Info@AttorneysCounselNY.com #lawjobchat
jcasalmir: also, they “told” me a great–and professional-story of that person’s life as a lawyer. #lawjobchat
aellislegal: Great point, Evan – QUANTIFY! RT @medialawcounsel specific accomplishments, e.g. “Negotiated 6 asset purchase agreements” #lawjobchat
econwriter5: RT @aellislegal: If you missed any of tonight’s chat, I’ll post the transcript and summary either later tonight or tomorrow morning #lawjobchat

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @richard_russeth on Landing In-House Counsel Jobs

On August 26, 2010, we hosted our third #LawJobChat, a chat on Twitter that takes place the last Thursday of each month from 9 – 10 pm Eastern. We welcomed our guest host, Richard Russeth.  I’ve pasted the full transcript below.

About Richard

Richard Russeth (@richard_russeth) serves as Vice President and General Counsel for Leprino Foods.  Directly after law school, he went in-house serving as Vice President and Assistant General Counsel for The Pillsbury Company.  Since then, he’s continued to work in general counsel positions for major corporations or their subsidiaries.   He offers his advice about moving in-house and what in-house lawyers need to know.  He also shares with us the benefits of being The Last Generalist.

5 Takeaway Tweets

  • richard_russeth: GENERALIST credentials are helpful in going in-house. SEC experience is amazingly helpful.
  • richard_russeth: Try to get an internship with a company after 1L – then firm after 2L.
  • richard_russeth: I think transferable skills are most important. Also many corps hire their outside counsel when they are impressed! case
  • richard_russeth: Early on I think salaries are about 70% of private practice. But get close to parity at about 7-10 years.
  • richard_russeth: Not all boards are created equal. Avoid “general” boards. Stick to reputable. Don’t “overexpose”. Desperate is bad.

I’d also recommend Amanda’s post that highlights the important points that Richard covered.

Full Transcript


1:00 am
aellislegal: Welcome to the 3rd #LawJobChat! Our topic tonight is finding in-house law jobs and our guest co-host is @richard_russeth. #lawjobchat
1:01 am aellislegal: Just a friendly reminder that I’ll start the discussion with some questions. I’ll assign a # to them – Q1, Q2, etc. #lawjobchat
1:01 am aellislegal: Please include the question number in your subsequent questions/replies/etc. Helps when reading transcript from chat. #lawjobchat
1:02 am aellislegal: To get started, I’ll let @richard_russeth introduce himself! #lawjobchat
1:02 am richard_russeth: @aellislegal Glad to be here and thanks for inviting! #lawjobchat
1:03 am mjsq: Thanks for joining us, @richard_russeth! #lawjobchat
1:03 am richard_russeth: @aellislegal I’m GC at Leprino Foods. Have been practicing for 28 yrs. Everyone of them in-house. #lawjobchat
1:04 am aellislegal: Q1: how many yrs experience does an atty need before looking for in-house positions? #lawjobchat
1:06 am aellislegal: Q1 cont: or, how easy is it to go in-house immediately after law school like you did? #lawjobchat
1:06 am richard_russeth: @aellislegal I think it depends on the position they are seeking in-house. #lawjobchat
1:07 am richard_russeth: Q1: But I think at a minimum one should have 5 years in private practice before trying to go in-house. #lawjobchat
1:08 am richard_russeth: Q1: I think I was pretty unusual in my career path. Very few go straight to in-house. It works if its a large corp. #lawjobchat
1:08 am aellislegal: Q1 cont: any particular type position that typically requires less experience? more experience? #lawjobchat
1:09 am richard_russeth: Q1: I was lucky to find a large company like The Pillsbury Company with a GC willing to take a chance! #lawjobchat
1:09 am richard_russeth: Q1: I think specialized roles such as IP are more demanding of experience. But positions in general contract work less so. #lawjobchat
1:10 am aellislegal: Q2: Assume a 5th year atty begins an in-house search. Is there a particular time of the calendar yr that’s best to look? #lawjobchat
1:11 am richard_russeth: Q1: credentials are helpful in going in-house. SEC experience is amazingly helpful. #lawjobchat
1:11 am aellislegal: Q2 cont: for example, does in-house hiring slow during particular months? #lawjobchat
1:11 am t10nbaum: Q2: What would you say is the most important thing to do in law school if you want to end up as GC one day? Moot, Journal, etc.? #lawjobchat
1:12 am richard_russeth: Q1: GENERALIST credentials are helpful in going in-house. SEC experience is amazingly helpful. #lawjobchat
1:12 am richard_russeth: Q2: I don’t think there is a special time of year anymore. This used to be true. Its more dictated the economy. #lawjobchat
1:13 am richard_russeth: Q2: That said, fourth quarter is a bad quarter in which to look. #lawjobchat
1:13 am squirrelpants: How can one go from a staff attorney position to an in-house one? #lawjobchat
1:13 am richard_russeth: Q2: As for law school, I think the broader your course load the better. Don’t over specialize. #lawjobchat
1:14 am richard_russeth: @squirrelpants Not sure I get the “staff” vs. “in-house” #lawjobchat
1:14 am aellislegal: Q3: good question RT @squirrelpants: How can one go from a staff attorney position to an in-house one? #lawjobchat
1:14 am richard_russeth: Q2: Try to get an internship with a company after 1L – then firm after 2L. #lawjobchat
1:15 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth I think he’s referring to being a staff attorney in a law firm, but will let @squirrelpantsconfirm #lawjobchat
1:16 am aellislegal: Q4: How does your company hire in-house lawyers? recruiters, company website, job boards, social media, etc? #lawjobchat
1:16 am richard_russeth: Q3: I think transferable skills are most important. Also many corps hire their outside counsel when they are impressed! #lawjobchat
1:16 am richard_russeth: Q3: For example, my predecessor was hired out of private practice where he represented our company #lawjobchat
1:17 am aellislegal: Advice to law students looking to go in-house: RT @richard_russeth Try to get internship w/company after 1L – then firm after 2L #lawjobchat
1:17 am richard_russeth: Q4: rely a great deal on networks and recruiters. Interestingly company’s make the mistake of using executive recruiters. #lawjobchat
1:17 am t10nbaum: Q4: being as that GC work is for a company, is there a business bground required? Or do lawyers from any background have a shot? #lawjobchat
1:18 am richard_russeth: Q2: My company hires a 1L each summer! We like the new ideas and the opportunity to introduce folks to in-house practice #lawjobchat
1:18 am t10nbaum: RT @aellislegal: Advice to law students looking to go in-house: RT @richard_russeth Try to get internship w/company after 1L – then firm after 2L #lawjobchat
1:19 am squirrelpants: Q3: Yeah, from a staff attorney at a law firm to in-house counsel #lawjobchat
1:19 am richard_russeth: Q4: Business background helpful but not essential. I do think in-house need to have an aptitude for business. #lawjobchat
1:20 am aellislegal: Q5: What skills do you look for? For ex, do in-house lawyers have diff daily responsibilities (from firm lawyers) that you seek? #lawjobchat
1:20 am mpsever: @aellislegal Just took the bar. Waiting on results. All jobs say they want 3-5 yrs experience. OK. where’s that come from? #lawjobchat
1:20 am richard_russeth: Q3: I don’t think status in the firm is what drives hiring at the company. Fit on expertise and cultural fit are important #lawjobchat
1:21 am richard_russeth: Q5: 3-5. We all want experience in-house because usually in-house is not big enough to devote much time to training. #lawjobchat
1:22 am richard_russeth: Q5: in-house is about providing practical answers not memos #lawjobchat
1:22 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth “@mpsever Just took the bar. All jobs say they want 3-5 yrs experience. where’s that come from?” #lawjobchat
1:23 am richard_russeth: Q5: I haven’t written an “opinion” in many many years. Face to face helping the business succeed is the role of in-house #lawjobchat
1:23 am aellislegal: @mpsever I assume you’re referring to firm and in-house job-postings. I’ll defer to @richard_russeth re in-house #lawjobchat
1:24 am richard_russeth: Q5: The need to be able to interact with business folks is critical. As is need to provide answers in real time at the meeting. #lawjobchat
1:24 am aellislegal: @mpsever Re firm jobs, remember most jobs aren’t advertised. Market your experience to firms. Target smaller firms that don’t #lawjobchat
1:24 am richard_russeth: I’m guessing 3-5 is in-house criteria. I think its usually closer to 5. #lawjobchat
1:24 am t10nbaum: Q6: You say your job is to help the business succeed, what is your daily schedule like? #lawjobchat
1:25 am DWesterberg: Son=2yr Law S: Worked at AnheiserBusch GC office1.5yrs prior to Law School, at civil Lit law firm past yr. Strong resume? #lawjobchat
1:25 am aellislegal: @mpsever (cont) Target smaller firms that may need junior attys. Volunteer w/legal aid or bar groups to get experience #lawjobchat
1:26 am aellislegal: Q7: How can a litigator position herself to move to an in-house position? #lawjobchat
1:26 am richard_russeth: Today: pension issues, mexican tariff issues, employment law issues, global supply contract and mtg with Linkedin rep #lawjobchat
1:28 am richard_russeth: Q7: Some businesses need in-house litigators e.g., pharma But most firms farm it out. So the ability to manage lit is top. #lawjobchat
1:28 am t10nbaum: good to know #linkedin is making its way to the GC office. It’s everywhere! #lawjobchat
1:28 am richard_russeth: @DWesterberg I think these are very good points on a CV and the AB connection is top. #lawjobchat
1:28 am richard_russeth: @t10nbaum and companies in general are really using Linkedin as a tool to find folks. #lawjobchat
1:29 am aellislegal: Q7 follow up: @richard_russeth any particular type companies litigators should target (more likely to hire 4 lit mgmt)? avoid? #lawjobchat
1:29 am richard_russeth: #linkedin is so key and network building from 1L forward. You never know who will end up where. #lawjobchat
1:30 am mjsq: @richard_russeth, to clarify, companies using linkedin to find outside litigators or to find GCs? #lawjobchat
1:30 am richard_russeth: Q7: Fun ? I’d do a westlaw search and see who’s drowning in lit! But also consumer intensive not B2B are more likely #lawjobchat
1:30 am aellislegal: LAW STUDENTS: @richard_russeth linkedin is so key and network building from 1L forward. You never know who will end up where. #lawjobchat
1:31 am richard_russeth: I think they are using linkedin across the spectrum but I’m not sure its reached the C-Suite yet. #lawjobchat
1:31 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth re Q7, I like the Westlaw search response!! #lawjobchat
1:31 am DWesterberg: Thank you RT @richard_russeth: @DWesterberg I think these are very good points on a CV and the AB connection is top. #lawjobchat
1:32 am aellislegal: Q8: Can you recommend job boards/websites helpful 4 attys seeking in-house jobs? #lawjobchat
1:33 am stone239: My background in accounting/finance helps tremendously as GC for RE Developer Q4: GC…is there a business bground required? #lawjobchat
1:33 am t10nbaum: @richard_russeth I sure hope so. Thanks to @aellislegal i’ve been working on my profile. Im a 2nd year law student #lawjobchat
1:33 am richard_russeth: Q8: I’ve looked for a job 3 times in my career and job boards are increasingly important. The ACC is tops! #lawjobchat
1:33 am t10nbaum: RT @aellislegal: LAW STUDENTS: @richard_russeth linkedin is so key and network building from 1L forward. You never know who will end up where. #lawjobchat
1:34 am richard_russeth: Q8: Not all boards are created equal. Avoid “general” boards. Stick to reputable. Don’t “overexpose”. Desperate is bad. #lawjobchat
1:34 am richard_russeth: NO Monster.com. Period. #lawjobchat
1:35 am aellislegal: Q9: how do in-house salaries compare 2 salaries @ BigLaw? What % salary reduction can BigLaw associate expect 2 move in-house? #lawjobchat
1:35 am aellislegal: RT @richard_russeth: NO Monster.com. Period. #lawjobchat
1:36 am richard_russeth: Q9: Early on I think salaries are about 70% of private practice. But get close to parity at about 7-10 years. #lawjobchat
1:36 am mjsq: Very true! RT @richard_russeth NO Monster.com. Period. #lawjobchat
1:36 am t10nbaum: RT @aellislegal: RT @richard_russeth: NO Monster.com. Period. #lawjobchat
1:36 am richard_russeth: Q8: You are not going to get rich going in-house, on the other hand you will have weekends free more often than not. #lawjobchat
1:37 am richard_russeth: Q8: In-house focuses on company performance so bonuses are tied to that. 30% is typical. #lawjobchat
1:37 am aellislegal: Q9 cont: how is comp structure diff from law firms? higher bonus opp, lower base? bonus tied to company performance? #lawjobchat
1:37 am aellislegal: @mjsq funny that we both RTd Richard’s commend re Monster! #lawjobchat
1:38 am richard_russeth: Q9: Base tends to be lower. Bonuses can range across the spectrum. Median is about 30% I think. #lawjobchat
1:38 am richard_russeth: Q9: If a company lists a in-house job on Monster, you don’t want to work there. #lawjobchat
1:38 am aellislegal: Q10: how does in-house hiring/recruiting process differ from firms? less formal? more interviews? slower/longer process? #lawjobchat
1:39 am aellislegal: RT @richard_russeth: Q9: If a company lists a in-house job on Monster, you dont want to work there. #lawjobchat
1:39 am stone239: weigh quality of life outside biglaw v lower salary RT @aellislegal Q9: how do in-house salaries compare 2 salaries @ BigLaw? #lawjobchat
1:39 am richard_russeth: Q10: I think the process can be much slower because you are an expense not a profit center in-house. #lawjobchat
1:40 am t10nbaum: RT @richard_russeth: Q9: If a company lists a in-house job on Monster, you don’t want to work there. #lawjobchat
1:40 am DavidCohenEsq: So true. Creative problem solving is a must. “@richard_russeth: Q5: in-house is about providing practical answers not memos #lawjobchat
1:40 am richard_russeth: Quality of life and interesting practice are big reasons to go in-house #lawjobchat
1:40 am jcasalmir: RT @richard_russeth: Q8: I’ve looked for a job 3 times in my career and job boards are increasingly important. The ACC is tops! #lawjobchat
1:40 am aellislegal: RT @stone239: My background in accounting/finance helps tremendously as GC for RE Developer #lawjobchat
1:41 am richard_russeth: Lots of responsibility early on in-house. Seeing a project from beginning to end and not just the paper. Impact outcomes! #lawjobchat
1:42 am aellislegal: Q11 any other adv to going in-house besides quality of life, interesting practice? #lawjobchat
1:42 am richard_russeth: @aellislegal @stone239 Absolutely finance can be a good background #lawjobchat
1:42 am stone239: Amen! RT @richard_russeth Quality of life and interesting practice are big reasons to go in-house #lawjobchat
1:42 am t10nbaum: RT @richard_russeth: Lots of responsibility early on in-house. Seeing a project from beginning to end and not just the paper. Impact outcomes! #lawjobchat
1:43 am aellislegal: Q11 related: Any disadvantages to going in-house? #lawjobchat
1:43 am richard_russeth: Q11: Instead of answering to a BigPartner you r part of business team making it happen. #lawjobchat
1:43 am lawyerkm: how should law firms connect with GCs? #lawjobchat
1:44 am richard_russeth: Q11: Disadvantages: you won’t get rich with some exceptions. It can be hard to transition back to private practice… #lawjobchat
1:44 am jcasalmir: 3-5 years =shorthand for “I can provide at least an initial “take” on clients’ question while on the phone with them.” #lawjobchat
1:44 am aellislegal: Good question! RT @lawyerkm: how should law firms connect with GCs? #lawjobchat
1:46 am richard_russeth: I’m a fan of the slow sell myself. Demonstrate worth. Provide solutions. Don’t “sell.” You’re not a car dealer. #lawjobchat
1:46 am richard_russeth: @jcasalmir #truth #lawjobchat
1:46 am t10nbaum: RT @richard_russeth: I’m a fan of the slow sell myself. Demonstrate worth. Provide solutions. Don’t “sell.” You’re not a car dealer. #lawjobchat
1:46 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth re transitioning from in-house to private practice, I was going to ask how easy it is to make the transition? #lawjobchat
1:47 am richard_russeth: Big fan of free seminars as way to get to know your firm. One hour. Lunch or breakfast. Webinar! #lawjobchat
1:47 am DavidCohenEsq: I connect w many law firms at local ACC events. @aellislegal Good question! RT @lawyerkm: how should law firms connect with GCs?#lawjobchat
1:47 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth Is it easier for certain types of in-house counsel to transition into private practice? #lawjobchat
1:47 am richard_russeth: Since I have never “transitioned” I don’t have first hand, but the longer in-house the tougher I think #lawjobchat
1:47 am aellislegal: LAWYERS: RT @richard_russeth: Big fan of free seminars as way to get to know your firm. One hour. Lunch or breakfast. Webinar! #lawjobchat
1:48 am richard_russeth: I think litigators and IP folks have a much easier time of transitioning back to private practice #lawjobchat
1:48 am jcasalmir: Q1: in contrast to @richard_russeth and @DavidCohenEsq I went in-house after 2 yrs govt. + 3 private practice. #lawjobchat
1:48 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat more than just not knowing where people will end up; you never know who they will meet along the way who can help u
1:48 am aellislegal: RT @DavidCohenEsq: I connect w many law firms at local ACC events. RT @lawyerkm: how should law firms connect with GCs? #lawjobchat
1:48 am richard_russeth: @DavidCohenEsq I like the ACC events as well. #lawjobchat
1:50 am changesq: RT @richard_russeth: Q8: You are not going to get rich going in-house, on the other hand you will have weekends free more often than not. #lawjobchat
1:51 am t10nbaum: RT @richard_russeth: Q8: You are not going to get rich going in-house, on the other hand you will have weekends free more often than not. #lawjobchat
1:51 am t10nbaum: RT @reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat more than just not knowing where people will end up; you never know who they will meet along the way who can help u
1:51 am reneefishman: @aellislegal re #lawjobchat Q8: When I was practicing I found best in-house jobs came thru connections, recruiters & co’s law firms
1:51 am richard_russeth: To prep to be a GC someday I tried to practice in every conceivable field of law for at least a bit for the 1st ten years #lawjobchat
1:52 am t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
1:52 am richard_russeth: A generalist with a strong SEC practice would be a killer combo for in-house public company #lawjobchat
1:52 am mjsq: Q12. In yr Rainmaking post, you say lawyers who spend time on social media should spend time on follow-up. Tips? #lawjobchat
1:53 am richard_russeth: I’m afraid I don’t know how the ACC and students work? It would be a clever idea in my book. #lawjobchat
1:53 am aellislegal: Provide 1 tip to junior associates in their 1st or 2nd yr of practice who want to go in-house in their 5th yr or so #lawjobchat
1:53 am stone239: For me, the sheer volume of issues. A GC really is a generalist (cont) Q: Any disadvantages to in-house? #lawjobchat
1:53 am aellislegal: RT @t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
1:53 am TechSavvyLaw: RT @richard_russeth To prep to be a GC someday I tried to practice in every conceivable field of law… for the 1st 10 years #lawJobchat
1:53 am stone239: #lawjobchat certain issues require specialized knowledge from outside counsel
1:54 am richard_russeth: Q12: If you put it out there, be willing to spend time, for free, talking to people who are interested. the hours will follow. #lawjobchat
1:54 am richard_russeth: RT @stone239: #lawjobchat certain issues require specialized knowledge from outside counsel // very true. No law dept knows everything.
1:55 am aellislegal: @eicdocket may be able to answer this question or point u in right direction RT @t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
1:55 am mjsq: Q13. You blog about how companies should pick GC, are these same Qs associates should ask themselves if they want to be a GC? #lawjobchat
1:55 am changesq: Took our legal interns to as many ACC events as they were allowed @richard_russeth @t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
1:56 am richard_russeth: Q13: I think that post applies in lots of fields not just law but yes I think they are worth applying as an associate. #lawjobchat
1:56 am richard_russeth: @changesq thnks for the clarification #lawjobchat
1:57 am t10nbaum: I live in NY and am a full time student. Any events in NYC or LI are an attractive option. Please forward any info my way #lawjobchat
1:59 am DavidCohenEsq: I bring my interns as a learning & networking opportunity. “@t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
2:00 am aellislegal: Final Q: what about using Twitter to build relationships? Would u hire an in-house lawyer after developing relationship on here? #lawjobchat
2:00 am richard_russeth: 1Ls – broaden your horizons – make yourself interesting to work with – watch #ted talks. #lawjobchat
2:00 am DavidCohenEsq: If you want to attend, call your local chapter administrator & ask if you can. “@t10nbaum: Can law students go to ACC events? #lawjobchat
2:01 am mjsq: One more blog Q, Q14. Your post ‘top 10 rules for job search success’ = A+ Any specific rules for in-house job search success? #lawjobchat
2:01 am t10nbaum: Or intern? @aellislegal #lawjobchat
2:01 am changesq: RT @richard_russeth: 1Ls – broaden your horizons – make yourself interesting to work with – watch #tedtalks. #lawjobchat
2:02 am richard_russeth: Final Q: I think twitter great place to find out about people. Their temperments and so on. Real time. So yes. It’s a start! #lawjobchat
2:02 am t10nbaum: RT @richard_russeth: 1Ls – broaden your horizons – make yourself interesting to work with – watch #tedtalks. #lawjobchat
2:02 am jcasalmir: 1. get a full understanding of an in-demand practice area. 2. demonstrate practical understanding of client’s biz needs. #lawjobchat
2:02 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat Q11: in- house can get monotonous, w/same type of work or projects & not much variety
2:03 am mjsq: RT @richard_russeth I think twitter great place to find out about people. Their temperments… Real time. So yes. It’s a start! #lawjobchat
2:03 am richard_russeth: Q11: I have never found in-house to be monotonous. Crazy sometimes but not monotonous. #lawjobchat
2:03 am richard_russeth: I think Top 10 rules are universal. #lawjobchat
2:04 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth THANK YOU 4 co-hosting!! Fabulous insight. I’ll post chat transcript tonight and summary over the wkd. #lawjobchat
2:04 am mjsq: @richard_russeth I agree. :-) #lawjobchat
2:04 am mjsq: Yes, thank you so much @richard_russeth for your insights. #lawjobchat
2:05 am richard_russeth: Thanks for having me. Lots of fun! Good luck to all the job seekers! #lawjobchat
2:05 am aellislegal: @richard_russeth Keep the discussion rolling if u have time and people have questions. this just ends official #LawJobChat hour #lawjobchat
2:06 am richard_russeth: @aellislegal Happy to stay on another 15 minutes! #lawjobchat
2:07 am aellislegal: Woo hoo!! Continue to ask questions if you wish RT @richard_russeth: @aellislegal Happy to stay on another 15 minutes! #lawjobchat
2:08 am jcasalmir: Q11: Even w/in my discrete practice area (advertising law), it NEVER gets monotonous. Hectic, nuts, crazy–yes (but I love it). #lawjobchat
2:09 am richard_russeth: @jcasalmir I suppose in a really big dept there could be some monotony but just hasn’t been my experience. #lawjobchat
2:09 am BriHoffman: Sorry I missed #lawjobchat tonight, interesting stuff, especially since I just became intern w/ in-house/cco of major investment company!
2:10 am BriHoffman: I will try to catch it next time! #lawjobchat
2:10 am richard_russeth: @BriHoffman I bet we’d learn a lot from your situation!! #lawjobchat
2:10 am richard_russeth: @BriHoffman Sounds like a very interesting position. #lawjobchat
2:11 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat tip to Jr associates: give at least 5 min to every recruiter who calls. Build rltnshps now & they will pay off
2:12 am richard_russeth: @reneefishman @aellislegal I say talk to them as long as they want to stay on the line… #lawjobchat
2:12 am tweetmcg: @aellislegal @richard_russeth @jcasalmir thanks for the great #lawjobchat #ff
2:13 am BriHoffman: @richard_russeth thanks. i’m excited, i start next week. working at Legg Mason for their CCO in mutual fund compliance! #lawjobchat #inhouse
2:14 am richard_russeth: Signing off here. Have a great night everyone. #goodnightmoon #lawjobchat
2:14 am jcasalmir: @richard_russeth true, but if you’re bored, it’s a win-win to proactively seek out interesting work since budgets are tight. #lawjobchat
2:16 am drewcarls: @richard_russeth @aellislegal enjoyed the convo tonight. great stuff to pass along to @utexaslawstudents & @utlawcso #lawjobchat
2:19 am t10nbaum: RT @reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat tip to Jr associates: give at least 5 min to every recruiter who calls. Build rltnshps now & they will pay off
2:25 am BriHoffman: @richard_russeth thanks for the follow! i’ll try to catch the next #lawjobchat
2:29 am aellislegal: @jcasalmir THANK YOU for participating in #LawJobChat tonight! I’m now following you – would love to include you as guest in future chat
2:34 am aellislegal: Transcript from 8/26 #LawJobChat w/@richard_russeth re landing in-house law jobs!http://bit.ly/9NneJA

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @LisaSolomon on Freelancing as an Attorney

On July 29, 2010, we hosted our second #LawJobChat.  Our host, Lisa Solomon, has thrived as a freelance legal research and writing attorney and coaches/consults with others to do the same.  She shares some of her experience and tips about freelancing as an attorney.  The chat was such a success, Lisa has agreed to host another #LawJobChat follow-up session soon!

Topic

Attorneys & Freelancing

Moderators

Amanda Ellis (@aellislegal) & Melissa Sachs (@mjsq)

Guest Co-Host

1.  Lisa Solomon (@lisasolomon) -Legal research & writing attorney; Coach/Consultant for other legal research and writing attorneys; Entrepreneur, specializing in fun gifts for legal professionals.

Transcript (copied & pasted from What the hashtag?!)

All times are Pacific Time


1:01 am
aellislegal: Welcome to the 2nd #LawJobChat! Tonight we are discussing freelance lawyering with @lisasolomon#lawjobchat
1:01 am aellislegal: @lisasolomon if you are here, tell us about your background and current practice #lawjobchat
1:02 am lisasolomon: Hi, @aellislegal @mjsq. Thanks for inviting me to co-host tonight #LawJobChat
1:03 am lisasolomon: After law school, I worked for 2 yrs in a small NYC litigation firm, then 1 yr as a trainer 4 Lexis in local law schools. #lawjobchat
1:04 am lisasolomon: Now, I wear 3 hats. 1st, I practice as a freelance lawyer, assisting other attys w/lgl research & writing (LRW) projects. #lawjobchat
1:05 am lisasolomon: 3rd, I am a partner in www.TheBillableHour.com, which sells humorous gifts & greeting cards 4 lawyers & lgl prof?ls #lawjobchat
1:06 am aellislegal: When you answer a Q or ask a Q, try to ref the Q# (i.e., Q1) #lawjobchat
1:07 am aellislegal: Q1 how did you transition into the freelance research/writing? how did you know that was what you wanted do? #lawjobchat
1:08 am lisasolomon: Q1 My husb & I are both attys. We wanted kids & knew 1 of us shd B solo. LRW work is flex. re: time & location #lawjobchat
1:09 am lisasolomon: Q1 Plus, I <3 LRW #lawjobchat
1:10 am aellislegal: Q2 how is your work as a freelance atty diff from work of contract attys through staffing agencies? #lawjobchat
1:10 am lisasolomon: Q2 As a freelancer, I?m a biz owner. I set my hours & decide what I want 2 do (i.e., substantive LRW). K attys =/= much control #lawjobchat
1:11 am mjsq: As a follow-up to Q1, what does a typical day look like for you? re: flex schedule, time & location. #LawJobChat
1:11 am t10nbaum: Q3, when you work freelance, do you work out of your home? Do you operate out of an office? #lawjobchat
1:13 am aellislegal: I’ll let you answer @mjsq and @t10nbaum before I ask other questions #lawjobchat
1:13 am hdifranco: #lawjobchat Do hiring attys want lots of legal exp for freelancers? I practiced 1 yr., then 5 yrs. w/Westlaw. I worry no one would hire me.
1:14 am lisasolomon: Q1 & Q3 I may be working 9-5 some days; others are variable. I have a home office & also work elsewhere on my laptop #lawjobchat
1:14 am hdifranco: #lawjobchat I <3 LRW, too! Took every class my law school offered. Friends thought I was crazy.
1:15 am aellislegal: Q4 RT @hdifranco Do hiring attys want lots of legal exp for freelancers? #lawjobchat
1:16 am lisasolomon: Q$ If U don’t have lots of practice exp., focus on other qualifications (e.g., school performance/credentials, enthusiasm, etc. )#lawjobchat
1:17 am lisasolomon: Q4 As w/other practice areas, hiring attys will look for a mix of qualifications. Some will be willing to go w/less experience #lawjobchat
1:17 am lisasolomon: Q4 in exchange for lower rate #lawjobchat
1:17 am aellislegal: more on Q4 – so, could a recent grad work as a freelance lawyer? I would think they would have advantage since fresh LRW skills #lawjobchat
1:18 am aellislegal: More on Q4 have you seen recent grads go to work as freelance lawyers? #lawjobchat
1:19 am lisasolomon: As an experienced atty, I question fresh LRW skills. New grads need to understand reqs of legal briefs are diff than law rev #lawjobchat
1:19 am t10nbaum: #lawjobchat, to follow up to @aellislegal, can law students do this, focusing more on research and draft writing to be corrected l8r by atty
1:20 am hdifranco: #lawjobchat Thank you! What’s the best way to get started? Was thinking of direct outreach to some area solos and smaller firms.
1:20 am lisasolomon: .@Barrister1988 Less experience=lower rates/salary in any biz or type of law practice. Every1 has to start somewhere #lawjobchat
1:21 am aellislegal: Q4 good pt re fresh LRW skills #lawjobchat
1:21 am lisasolomon: .@t10nbaum Sure; there’s even a website called www.lawclerkconnection.com #lawjobchat
1:21 am aellislegal: Q5 RT @hdifranco What’s the best way to get started? Was thinking of direct outreach to some area solos and smaller firms #lawjobchat
1:22 am lisasolomon: .@hdifranco U R on right track. All my clients R small firms & solos. Larger firms have their own wage slaves, uh, associates #lawjobchat
1:24 am t10nbaum: #lawjobchat And by slaves, @lisasolomon, you mean law students like my self. We love working hard for even a chance at future employment
1:25 am aellislegal: Q6 Where should people who want to freelance put their marketing efforts – approach solos directly? #lawjobchat
1:25 am squirrelpants: How do other freelancers set their hourly rates? #lawjobchat
1:26 am aellislegal: Q6 more on marketing – approach solos/small firms through LI so attys can see your background/exp? #lawjobchat
1:26 am lisasolomon: .@t10nbaum Well, yes; also, in the olden days (i.e., until 2008) firms used to hire & pay associates & work them very hard #lawjobchat
1:26 am aellislegal: Q7 RT @squirrelpants How do other freelancers set their hourly rates? #lawjobchat
1:27 am lisasolomon: Q6 Go where the clients are. Join the litigation section of the bar ass?ns to which you belong. Definitely approach solos direct #lawjobchat
1:28 am t10nbaum: #lawjobchat, @lisasolomon. Shame i missed those days. I’m only going into my second year
1:28 am aellislegal: Q7 more on comp: charge by case or by hour or some other variation? #lawjobchat
1:29 am lisasolomon: Q7 Many factors go into setting rates, incl. ur yrs of experience, any special skills U have & going rate in locality #lawjobchat
1:30 am lisasolomon: Q6 I would do in-person networking rather than approach via LI (latter approach is like cold-calling, not likely 2 work) #lawjobchat
1:30 am t10nbaum: Q8, r there groups of freelance attorneys around in localities? I.e bar ass’n committees for freelancers? Or do u go it alone? #lawjobchat
1:31 am lisasolomon: Q7 U can use various types of fee structures, incl. hourly & flat fee #lawjobchat
1:33 am lisasolomon: Q8 Also, my blog (www.LegalResearchandWritingPro.com). Haven’t heard of local bar ass’n committees for freelancers #lawjobchat
1:33 am aellislegal: Following up to @t10nbaum Q9- what resources, organizations are avail for freelance attys? #lawjobchat
1:34 am lisasolomon: .@Barrister1988 Sorry, I can’t speak to salaries in teaching or journalism #lawjobchat
1:35 am LaLicenciada: Mayb research bt not likely perdiem work. RT @aellislegal: more on Q4 – so, could a recent grad work as a freelance lawyer? #lawjobchat
1:35 am aellislegal: Q10 Tell us more re Legal Research and Writing Pro – I noticed there are different memberships #lawjobchat
1:36 am lisasolomon: Q10 All memberships incl. my e-book (K Lawyering Success), Freelance Freedom teleseminar recording & sample services agmt. #lawjobchat
1:37 am lisasolomon: Q10 Gold includes 3 add’l recorded progs of ur choice. Platinum includes 6 prog recordings & 1 hr private coaching #lawjobchat
1:37 am lisasolomon: Q10 Platinum+ incl. everything in Platinum, plus opportunity to be LRWP certified & get on my referral list #lawjobchat
1:39 am lisasolomon: .@lalicenciada If you have some in-ct. experience, you may get per diem work even if a recent grad. Depends on your skills #lawjobchat
1:39 am aellislegal: Q11 Are there any ethical restrictions on working as freelance lawyer or can u do this in any state? #lawjobchat
1:41 am mjsq: @lisasolomon re: Q10 What does it mean to be LRWP certified? #LawJobChat
1:41 am lisasolomon: Q11 All States allow freelance lawyering. #lawjobchat
1:42 am lisasolomon: Q11 ABA Formal Op 08-451, which I analyze at http://tinyurl.com/6lcfl3, is the main ethics op re: freelance lawyering #lawjobchat
1:42 am LaLicenciada: @lisasolomon I agree. But @ least in Kings County, for per diem there’s a monopoly on it. its 1. who you know 2. Experience. #lawjobchat
1:43 am lisasolomon: Q10 LRWP certified=meeting my standards for writing skill & research & writing efficiency #lawjobchat
1:44 am aellislegal: Q12 What type technology do you use in your practice? #lawjobchat
1:45 am lisasolomon: .@LaLicenciada Success in many fields is based in large part on contacts & experience. Networking is key #lawjobchat
1:45 am aellislegal: More on Q12 – for ex, you blog – is that a skill a freelance lawyer should have? easy to learn? #lawjobchat
1:46 am lisasolomon: Q12 Full list of tech I use is in my Web Worker Daily profile at http://twurl.nl/xn8t1f #lawjobchat
1:47 am aellislegal: Excellent! RT @lisasolomon Q12 Full list of tech I use is in my Web Worker Daily profile athttp://twurl.nl/xn8t1f #lawjobchat
1:47 am lisasolomon: Q12 Freelance lawyer who wants to do LRW should definitely know how to write for various audiences (incl. blogging) #lawjobchat
1:48 am lisasolomon: Q12 I have my own blog & also have ghost-written blog posts & articles (though most of my writing is briefs) #lawjobchat
1:48 am medialawcounsel: @aellislegal: Q 12–your book of course. And so should everyone else. #lawjobchat #amandaellisrules
1:48 am aellislegal: Q13 Do freelance lawyers need their own malpractice insurance? #lawjobchat
1:52 am aellislegal: Q14 have you seen an increase in the use of freelance attys in the past year? #lawjobchat
1:53 am aellislegal: @medialawcounsel Hi, Evan! #lawjobchat
1:54 am lisasolomon: Q14 In past few years, entire profession is exploring ways to lower costs while still providing excellent service. #lawjobchat
1:54 am aellislegal: Q15 Do freelance lawyers need to form a business entity for their freelance practice? #lawjobchat
1:54 am lisasolomon: Q14 Freelance attys serve that role. #lawjobchat
1:56 am lisasolomon: Q15 Same considerations apply as w/any other type of law practice. Must weigh pros/cons (esp. re: taxes) of diff biz structures #lawjobchat
1:56 am aellislegal: RT @lisasolomon Q13 strongly recommend own malpract ins. Details re: why, download guide to K lawyering http://twurl.nl/h5ulxs #lawjobchat
1:58 am mjsq: @lisasolomon, what about Lexis/WestLaw? Do you pay for access out-of-pocket, does law firm, does it depend? #LawJobChat
1:59 am aellislegal: FINAL Q Any parting words, advice for lawyers considering the freelance path? #lawjobchat
2:00 am lisasolomon: Re: Lexis/Westlaw Does a surgeon ask to borrow scalpels? If UR serious re: being freelance lawyer, have ur own subscription #LawJobChat
2:02 am mjsq: @lisasolomon good point. (*blush*) #LawJobChat
2:02 am lisasolomon: I think there is amazing pent-up demand for high-quality outsourced services, esp. LRW. #lawjobchat
2:02 am t10nbaum: @lisasolomon thnx for all the info 2night #lawjobchat
2:04 am lisasolomon: As a freelance lawyer, I have it all: challenging career, flexibility & a comfortable living. U can, too. It’s a growing field #lawjobchat
2:04 am aellislegal: @lisasolomon THANK YOU, Lisa, for sharing your insights into freelance lawyering -thank you to all who participated, gr8 chat! #lawjobchat
2:05 am lisasolomon: .@aellislegal @mjsq Thanks for having me – it’s been fun! #LawJobChat
2:06 am aellislegal: Next #LawJobChat 8/26, 9pm EDT- let us know what you want to discuss – resumes, law firm economics, particular pract area, etc #lawjobchat
2:06 am mjsq: thanks, @lisasolomon. you shared great resources! http://bit.ly/XmtZ (ABA ethics rule),http://bit.ly/aay25k (profile), & sites! #LawJobChat
2:06 am aellislegal: I’ll post transcript from tonight’s chat at some point tomorrow on @LawJobChat #lawjobchat
2:09 am aellislegal: @Jon_Lewis #LawJobChat is the last Thursday of each month at 9pm EDT – join us next month!
2:10 am lisasolomon: Talk about work/life balance: the moment I finished #lawjobchat, my daughter came in room w/ (small) cut, dripping blood
2:10 am aellislegal: @Jon_Lewis and, you can follow #LawJobChat at @LawJobChat
2:11 am aellislegal: Did u follow #LawJobChat? @lisasolomon shared tips RT @bridgetzig @aellislegal I could really use freelance work asap. Any tips?
2:12 am aellislegal: cont. can search #LawJobChat in Twitter search bar RT @bridgetzig @aellislegal I could really use freelance work asap. Any tips?
2:30 am aellislegal: Transcript from tonight’s #LawJobChat http://bit.ly/9G4Fri
2:31 am LawJobChat: Transcript from tonight’s #LawJobChat http://bit.ly/9G4Fri
2:34 am richard_russeth: RT @lisasolomon: Lexis/Westlaw Does a surgeon borrow scalpels? Serious re being freelance lawyer? Have ur own subscription #LawJobChat
Powered by WTHashtag, A Microblink Property | Contact

Lessons from #LawJobChat: @doncruse @dtoddsmith @KiangaEllis + @reneefishman on Leaving BigLaw

On June 24, 2010, we hosted our inaugural #LawJobChat.  Our hosts were all formerly BigLaw attorneys who successfully transitioned to a new career or practice environment.  Thanks to all who made this inaugural chat a success!  I’ve pasted the full transcript below.

About our Hosts

1.  Don Cruse (@doncruse) is a Texas appellate lawyer.  He publishes @scotxblog and he created of @docketdb and @blindcarbon;

2.  Todd Smith (@dtoddsmith) left BigLaw to start a solo practice that focuses on civil appeals and litigation support.  He also blogs at Texas Appellate Law Blog;

3.  Kianga Ellis (@KiangaEllis) became an Art Evangelist after she left BigLaw; and

4.  Renee Fishman (@reneefishman) who decided to become a NYC real estate broker after leaving BigLaw.

5 Takeaway Tweets

  • kiangaellis: It’s a great time to be less conventional. I strongly encourage it. Major shifts in biz + industry. Carve ur space.

  • dtoddsmith: Talk to people you trust, those who have taken paths similar to what you’re interested in.

  • reneefishman: always easy to leave BigLaw: lots of attrition. Real issue is how easy/hard is it to enter what u want to do.

  • dtoddsmith: Had saved some $. Main thing was to have pieces in place to start working on day 1 of new firm. Planned & planned some more.

  • doncruse: Don’t assume friends/classmates know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better.

I’d also recommend Amanda’s post that highlights the important points as well.

Full Transcript


1:00 am
aellislegal: Welcome to our 1st chat! We have 4 fmr BigLaw attys to chat about why, when and how they left & what they are doing now #lawjobchat
1:03 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat 2 years and 5 mos at Cravath, Swaine + More. Now an art evangelist using social media and other forums to connect ppl w art.
1:04 am aellislegal: Once we begin questions, anyone can comment, ask follow-up questions, etc. #lawjobchat
1:04 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Whoops, will watch the typos. That’s Cravath, Swaine + Moore LLP… 1998-2001
1:05 am aellislegal: @kristahiner Awesome! Welcome!! #lawjobchat
1:05 am doncruse: #lawjobchat Three years at Wachtell Lipton. Then four years at Texas AG’s version of OSG. Now a solo appellate lawyer in Austin. #lawjobchat
1:05 am dtoddsmith: About 9 years total at Fulbright & Jaworski in Dallas and Austin offices. Now have my own civil appellate boutique. #lawjobchat #lawjobchat
1:06 am aellislegal: Hi @doncruse @kiangaellis @dtoddsmith – thanks for your intros! #lawjobchat
1:07 am aellislegal: Not sure if @reneefishman is here yet – I’ll start the questions and let her introduce herself when she arrives #lawjobchat
1:08 am kiangaellis: @doncruse I spent the summer before law school as a paralegal at Wachtell. Mostly manual labor lifting tobacco litigation boxes #lawjobchat
1:09 am aellislegal: Q1: at what point in career did you realize you wanted to leave BigLaw to do something else? what factors motivated you? #lawjobchat
1:10 am reneefishman: @aellislegal thx. Columbia Law grad. 5+ yrs @ Weil Gotshal, then in-house @ startup. Now NYC Real Estate broker: VP @halstead #lawjobchat
1:11 am doncruse: @kiangaellis Small world! #lawjobchat
1:11 am aellislegal: Hi @reneefishman! Q1 (to all): at what pt in career did you realize you wanted to leave BigLaw, what factors motivated you? #lawjobchat
1:14 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat I studied communication & #marketing @UPenn. Wanted to use both sides of my brain: intellect + creativity
1:14 am aellislegal: RT @reneefishman I always knew BigLaw wasn’t my end game; I wanted to move to business side & also be able to use my creativity. #lawjobchat
1:14 am adamcollyer: @aellislegal The #lawjobchat is a great idea. I’m grateful to be employed in Sept, but am passing along advice to friends in need. Thank you
1:14 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Had a feeling 2nd summer in law school that it might not be what I’d been expecting since 13yrs old…
1:15 am dtoddsmith: @aellislegal Q1: Always wanted to have my own firm. Wasn’t handling kinds of cases I wanted & desired more client contact. #lawjobchat
1:16 am doncruse: #lawjobchat #Q1 It felt pretty natural. TxOSG offered a chance to be lead counsel on big appeals, which some firm partners didn’t get.
1:17 am doncruse: #lawjobchat #Q1 (cont’d) The cases at the firm were amazing, as were the people. But the opportunity for growth as an advocate was bounded.
1:18 am reneefishman: warning to my followers: I’ll be co-hosting #lawjobchat for next hour to answer questions about careers after BigLaw.
1:18 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat I should mention, after Big Law went in house at Goldman and Lehman dealing w derivatives + commodities (in between start ups).
1:19 am aellislegal: @kiangaellis @reneefishman Q2: did u know what u wanted to do when u left BL? @doncruse@dtoddsmith kind of answered this in Q1 #lawjobchat
1:20 am kristahiner: @kiangaellis That is how I’ve been feeling. (The expectation). Starting to look for a less conventional legal route. #lawjobchat
1:20 am reneefishman: @aellislegal Q1 cont’d: motivated to get into #realestate to help people & I <3 NYC. Plus I knew my legal skill would add value. #lawjobchat
1:20 am mjsq: @kiangaellis I’m sure many lawyers are in the same spot now. #lawjobchat
1:21 am dtoddsmith: @doncruse I’ve always admired TxOSG. Envy the experience young lawyers are able to get there. Extremely valuable, no doubt. #lawjobchat
1:22 am reneefishman: @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat small world! I did event planning on the side while @ WGM. Search for me + #Bizbash article from ~2003 ish
1:23 am reneefishman: @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat small world again. I was in-house @ Creditex (now part of ICE) – interdealer broker in derivatives
1:24 am j_lavalley: Everyone who’s left BigLaw knows it’s 1/2 meat-grinder, 1/2 boiler room & 1/2 laughing academy. How EZ/hard was it 4 ppl 2 exit? #LawJobChat
1:24 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat Q2: 1st went in-house after BigLaw – goal was to get to biz side but startup grew fast & too much legal work
1:26 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat Q2 cont: I always had entrepreneurial streak & knew I wanted to run my own biz. As RE Broker I’m an independent contractor
1:26 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q2 cont. 1st tried 2 get a job in fashion. No go. I liked organizing events in college + law school so that’s what I started w/.
1:27 am kristahiner: @reneefishman how has your JD helped with RE?–Skills? Reputation? I’m considering a non-firm route and wonder how the JD helps. #lawjobchat
1:27 am aellislegal: Good question via @j_lavalley How EZ/hard was it 4 ppl 2 exit? #LawJobChat
1:28 am kiangaellis: @kristahiner #lawjobchat It’s a great time to be less conventional. I strongly encourage it. Major shifts in biz + industry. Carve ur space.
1:29 am doncruse: #lawjobchat #Q3 Wanting to leave a place is very different than wanting to be somewhere else. [fortune cookie version] Wait for the latter.
1:30 am aellislegal: Another great question RT @kristahiner @reneefishman how has your JD helped with RE?–Skills? Reputation? #lawjobchat
1:30 am reneefishman: @j_lavalley always easy to leave BigLaw: lots of attrition. Real issue is how easy/hard is it to enter what u want to do. #lawjobchat
1:30 am dtoddsmith: Q3: Talk to people you trust, those who have taken paths similar to what you’re interested in. #lawjobchat
1:31 am reneefishman: @aellislegal Q3: best #advice is don’t leave BigLaw til u figure out what u want to do next #lawjobchat. At least u need a game plan
1:32 am kiangaellis: @reneefishman #lawjobchat I was *so* into Bizbash!!! Also got very active in a prof assn can’t remember the name of and James Beard House.
1:32 am j_lavalley: @reneefishman Yes, precisely! I should’ve asked how EZ/hard it was 2 *transition* (i.e., effectively/successfully) to a new gig. #LawJobChat
1:33 am reneefishman: @kristahiner JD & legal experience can help w/everything. 4 me in RE I play “translator” b/w clients & RE attys #lawjobchat
1:34 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q3 Tough! Current Big Law, I guess don’t get stuck looking 4 the perfect thing or feel you need to figure out the end game.
1:35 am aellislegal: Q4: did you begin saving $ before leaving BigLaw? how long? any other planning u did before leaving (e.g. special training)? #lawjobchat
1:35 am reneefishman: @kristahiner also I understand nuances of contracts & complex issues that clients & other brokers don’t get #lawjobchat
1:35 am j_lavalley: @kiangaellis LOL ~ I know that feeling all 2 well! Left Boies Schiller?w/no real prospects?but knew I had 2 do “something else.” #LawJobChat
1:36 am mjsq: re:Q2 I see lots of event planning/bus development positions in BigLaw. Was it an option to shift positions w/in firm? feasible? #lawjobchat
1:37 am reneefishman: @kristahiner JD & BigLaw legal experience helps differentiate me & shows I’m intelligent in a field w/low barrier to entry #lawjobchat
1:37 am aellislegal: RT @mjsq re:Q2 I see lots of event planning/bus development positions in BigLaw. Option to shift positions w/in firm? feasible? #lawjobchat
1:38 am reneefishman: @mjsq I know many people who stayed w/in BigLaw 2 do event planning/biz dev/recruiting/associate relations. not what I wanted #lawjobchat
1:38 am kiangaellis: @mjsq #lawjobchat Taking a non legal role in a firm sounds like a gr8 strategy 2 me. Gets u experience and results to bolster another move.
1:38 am mjsq: @doncruse, nicely put. #lawjobchat
1:39 am kristahiner: @reneefishman Fantastic way to distinguish yourself. #lawjobchat
1:40 am reneefishman: @aellislegal Q4 #lawjobchat saving $ is good idea. esp if u plan to start own biz. will tackle training next
1:40 am kiangaellis: @j_lavalley #lawjobchat Yeah, I took the leap right after major market crash. #brilliant. But law always helped me get back in2 a good job.
1:41 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat Q4 so crucial to get good experience so resume doesn’t read so “legal”; best way to do this is experience thru volunteer work
1:41 am dtoddsmith: Q4: Had saved some $. Main thing was to have pieces in place to start working on day 1 of new firm. Planned & planned some more. #lawjobchat
1:42 am jerry_levine: Well, I’m finally back home. Attended some job search strategy thing at NJ Law Center. Now time to pay attention to #lawjobchat for a bit.
1:42 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q4 Aahh, saving $. I didn’t plan well or handle money very well for a long time. Learned/learning lots of lesson there…
1:42 am aellislegal: @dtoddsmith Q4: how many months prior to departure did u start planning? #lawjobchat
1:43 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat Q4 if u r involved in charities, committees, etc u can get biz dev, event plan & other non-legal expereince. Tout this on resume
1:43 am mjsq: @dtoddsmith and how long did it take for you to begin day 1 of new firm after departure? #lawjobchat
1:43 am aellislegal: @reneefishman Q4: how far in advance to start saving? from day 1 since reality is most ppl don’t stay in BigLaw? #lawjobchat
1:43 am doncruse: #lawjobchat #Q4 How much to save depends (obv.) on what you want to do. But if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now.
1:44 am reneefishman: RT @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat Q4 I didn’t plan well or handle money very well for a long time. Learned/learning lots of lesson there | Ditto
1:44 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q4 The truth? My planning was take a HLOC, shop like a nut in LON + Paris. Quit my job. Take out a Small Biz loan. #terriblemove
1:44 am j_lavalley: @kiangaellis @reneefishman In my experience, no matter how much $ U have saved it NEVER goes as far as U think/hope. #savemore! #LawJobChat
1:45 am reneefishman: @aellislegal hard 4 me 2 answer. I wasn’t great at it. NYC cost of living is high. I purchased my apt just b4 leaving BigLaw. #lawjobchat
1:46 am aellislegal: Q5: what BigLaw opportunities should current BL associates take advantage of while there?Anything u took for granted while there #lawjobchat
1:47 am allhomemortgage: RT @kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q4 The truth? My planning was take a HLOC, shop like a nut in LON + Paris. Quit my job. Take out a Small …
1:47 am dtoddsmith: @aellislegal @mjsq Q4: Planned several months. Kind of practice, biz dev strategy, insurance, systems. No gap between firms. #lawjobchat
1:47 am j_lavalley: IMO networking is necessary (if not sufficient) 2 making an effective transition. Local Bar Ass’n involvement can B a HUGE help! #LawJobChat
1:48 am kiangaellis: @mjsq @toddsmith #lawjobchat When I started thinking I shld get a job after 2 yrs w startup, quickly linked w GS. Derivatives helped a lot.
1:48 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat best BigLaw perk: Free #CLE. I still keep my license current & CLE is $
1:48 am aellislegal: YES! what I tell associates when they call me! via @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat
1:49 am dtoddsmith: Q5: Training. Also, learn as much as firm will teach about biz development. On your own, work doesn’t just show up on your desk. #lawjobchat
1:50 am reneefishman: RT @j_lavalley IMO networking is necessary 2 making an effective transition. | Agree. But u should be networking no matter what #lawjobchat
1:50 am j_lavalley: @aellislegal Use it or lose it! Whether firm-paid CLEs, FSIA accts, or support for pro bono &/or Bar Committee work … take it! #LawJobChat
1:50 am doncruse: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q5 I’d say to take advantage of the networking opportunities a big firm presents.
1:51 am reneefishman: RT @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat | Save even if you’re not contemplating a move
1:52 am lisasolomon: @aellislegal A gr8 source for free CLE is Virtual LegalTech. ABA will also have a virtual CLE conf. in the fall 4 solos #lawjobchat
1:52 am aellislegal: Q6: share a networking tip, resource, or organization that has helped u in your entrepreneurial endeavor #lawjobchat
1:53 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat Q5 I still see & speak w/many of my colleagues from Weil Gotshal & co where I was in-house. Many are my RE clients
1:53 am lisasolomon: @reneefishman @aellislegal My husb transitioned 2 new career (sound design/engineering), but keeps up his license. Vry valuable #lawjobchat
1:53 am kiangaellis: RT @j_lavalley: @aellislegal Use it or lose it! Whether firm-paid CLEs, FSIA accts, or support for pro bono &/or Bar Committee work … take it! #LawJobChat
1:54 am reneefishman: @aellislegal I am a big fan of @lawline for CLE. Great online classes. #lawjobchat
1:55 am aellislegal: RT @lisasolomon: gr8 source for free CLE is Virtual LegalTech. ABA will have virtual CLE conf. in the fall 4 solos #lawjobchat #lawjobchat
1:56 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 #networking tip always 2 talk 2 people even if u don’t think ur interested. I talked to recruiters from day 1
1:56 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Q6 Honestly, the best resource to help me as an entrepreneur has been the Bible! Wld lose my mind completely without it.
1:56 am Tartipants: RT @reneefishman RT @doncruse: “if you’re reading this chat, you probably should be saving now” #lawjobchat | Save eve… http://foook.com
1:56 am dtoddsmith: Q6: I think @doncruse would agree that blogging can be a difference-maker. Makes you visible. Good conversation-starter. #lawjobchat
1:56 am kiangaellis: RT @reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 #networking tip always 2 talk 2 people even if u don’t think ur interested. I talked to recruiters from day 1
1:57 am aellislegal: Final Q (though welcome to keep chatting): would u ever return to BigLaw? Any other advice u haven’t shared but wanted to share? #lawjobchat
1:57 am reneefishman: RT @KiangaEllis #lawjobchat #Q5 The rigor, pressure and complexity of performing at Big Law is so valuable. | Agreed.
1:59 am reneefishman: @dtoddsmith @doncruse #lawjobchat I don’t blog b/c no time to do it consistently. But Twitter, LinkedIn & FB help me keep in touch w/pple
1:59 am doncruse: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 Don’t assume friends/classmates know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better.
1:59 am aellislegal: Agree – recruiters can be referral source, too RT @reneefishman #lawjobchat #Q6 always 2 talk 2 people, I talked to recruiters from day 1
2:00 am aellislegal: @mjsq @reneefishman and, recruiters often refer clients to attys! #lawjobchat
2:00 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat I <3 what I do now & am passionate about my biz. BigLaw not for me. But some people like BigLaw & security offered
2:01 am kristahiner: @doncruse That’s an excellent point. It is easy to forget how valuable classmates are when starting a new venture. #lawjobchat
2:01 am BetsyMunnell: True fact: @reneefishman JD/BigLaw experience helps differentiate me; shows I’m intelligent in field w/low barrier 2 entry #lawjobchat
2:02 am reneefishman: @aellislegal #lawjobchat biggest misconception is that life after BigLaw is easier. NOT SO. I work much harder & longer hours now.
2:02 am mjsq: @doncruse Def! Send an e-mail to your contacts, let ‘em know what yr up to, start a mailing list, ask ‘em to join #lawjobchat
2:03 am kiangaellis: #lawjobchat Final Q I wld not return 2 BigLaw + after 10 yrs of back + forth, no more practicing 4 me. It’s a personal journey 4 each one.
2:03 am kristahiner: @reneefishman Wow, I am glad you said that; I foolishly assumed that was the reason many people left. Great advice. #lawjobchat
2:03 am aellislegal: Next #lawjobchat 7/29 9pm EDT. Follow @LawJobChat for topic, let us know your suggestions, comments, etc – doing this for you! #lawjobchat
2:04 am kiangaellis: RT @doncruse: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 Don’t assume friends/classmates know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better.
2:04 am mjsq: We’re also going to set up a #LawJobChat wiki. We’ll link to bios of past guests & have a place for follow up discussion, topic requests.
2:04 am kiangaellis: RT @BetsyMunnell: True fact: @reneefishman JD/BigLaw experience helps differentiate me; shows I’m intelligent in field w/low barrier 2 entry #lawjobchat
2:04 am dtoddsmith: On going back, never say never. But I like what I’m doing now. Much more control and satisfying for me. #lawjobchat
2:05 am aellislegal: Gr8 pt!! RT @reneefishman #lawjobchat biggest misconception = life after BigLaw is easier. NOT SO. I work much harder & longer hours now.
2:05 am BetsyMunnell: I’d like to chime in on Q5 (former 25-yr Biglaw partner/now bizdev coach 4 lawyers/students)? @aellislegal It’s a key question #lawjobchat
2:05 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat When u finally determine what u want to do, have the courage to follow that path, even if it seems scary. You will be rewarded.
2:06 am aellislegal: RT @BetsyMunnell: I’d like to chime in on Q5 (former 25-yr Biglaw partner/now bizdev coach 4 lawyers/students)? @aellislegal It’s a key question #lawjobchat
2:06 am dtoddsmith: @reneefishman Couldn’t have said it better. #lawjobchat
2:07 am doncruse: @aellislegal #lawjobchat #Q6 I’d just echo what Todd said. There are real advantages to a bigger firm. But I like what I’m doing now.
2:07 am reneefishman: RT @doncruse #lawjobchat Don’t assume friends know about your venture. In retrospect, I could’ve announced mine much better. | Gr8 pt
2:08 am BetsyMunnell: @aellislegal Q5 Before you leave, learn about the real world-if the firm is teaching this…Can you read a financial statement? #lawjobchat
2:08 am j_lavalley: RT @reneefishman: When u finally determine what u want to do, have the courage 2 follow that path….You will B rewarded. #TRUTH #LawJobChat
2:09 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat Key is u have 2 determine what your skills r & what u like 2 do. Many lawyers do not want to be entrepreneurs. Too risky 4 them
2:09 am kiangaellis: @dtoddsmith and everyone behind #lawjobchat, this was really fun and I hope helped someone. Life is what you make it. No limits.
2:11 am aellislegal: HUGE THANKS to guest co-hosts @doncruse @dtoddsmith @kiangaellis @reneefishman – excellent info!! #lawjobchat
2:12 am mjsq: Yes, thank you to @kiangaellis @reneefishman @doncruse @dtoddsmith @aellislegal & participants – the 1st #LawJobChat rocked! #lawjobchat
2:12 am reneefishman: #lawjobchat #advice Most important is determine what u love 2 do. Understand what is involved – not just the glamour but also the grit.
2:14 am reneefishman: RT @aellislegal HUGE THANKS to guest co-hosts @doncruse @dtoddsmith @kiangaellis@reneefishman – excellent info!! #lawjobchat | Thx!
2:15 am reneefishman: @aellislegal & #lawjobchat participants THANKS for including me. Had a blast & hope I helped. Follow your passion & do what you love!
2:18 am kiangaellis: RT @reneefishman: #lawjobchat #advice Most important is determine what u love 2 do. Understand what is involved – not just the glamour but also the grit.